10-26-2006, 03:26 PM
Hail, my friends, and greetings from the frozen North!
Being new to this forum, i am still finding my feet, so i hope you bear with me! Before i get to the subject, i would like to tell you a little about my train of thought, by way of introduction, and to prepare you for anything else i write on the Forum! :wink: Firstly, anything i write is opinion and only that. As far as i am concerned, there is a difference between fact and opinion. Opinions are like noses...everybody has one! Facts are more like, say, a Saab 96 V4 Monte Carlo...rare, and if you really want one, you have to search hard! :lol: I am always open to other opinions. I think it was Ben Johnson that said " I may not agree with what you say, sir, but i defend to the death your right to say it!". It is my motto, and should be the motto of every Forum The desire to make things better or easier, and money/wealth. These have been both cause and effect for politics, religion, and of course war. The only 'modern thinking' i think exists, and some re-enactors i have met are particulary guilty of this, is that our forebears were more than happy to do extremely labour intensive work without trying to improve their lot, and were happy to wear and use uncomfortable and/or impractical clothing and equipment. There is always someone with a better idea. If it were not true, and mankind did not try always to make things better, we would still be hunter-gatherers living in caves. :wink:
Anyway, on to subject. I make ringmail, and i have read as much as i can find about Roman ringmail. It would appear that it was composed of alternate rings of rivetted and whole rings, and the general concensus was that the whole rings were stamped out of plate metal. I don't think so, and here's why ( bear in mind what i said above..). Firstly, having made quite a few shirts, i have a bit of a practical understanding of them. Until recently i was making my own rings, then i discovered ready made rings ( aaahhh...what bliss! :lol: ) and found that i only needed to open half the rings, and it honestly quartered the time! This is, of course why the rows of solid rings were used. I mean, i knew that, but now i have a practical understanding...( well, fluh..) I also happen to work in a place where washers are made, and it was this that really made me think. To stamp one ring out of plate metal takes quite some force. Therefore i think the solid rings were hammer welded. The rings would be already made. It would be so much easier to take half of them, heat them to the right temperature, and strike them in the right way. This, as i am given to understand, would produce a flat, sealed ring. On the other hand, going to the trouble of producing, or buying plate metal, and then indulging in some very labour intensive work, seems unlikely. We know the Romans made use of water power, so it could be that this was used, but think of the comparitive logistics and cost. even were one to use slaves, they and their families still have to be fed clothed and housed.( Please feel free to correct me here. As i understand it the Romans, broadly speaking, treated slaves well, especially if they worked hard and/or were skilled) so why have lots of slaves doing something that took lots of time, when you could have one or two making lots of rings in a comparitively short time? If, of course, slaves were used at all. My theory is that hammer welding rings is much much quicker at producing lots of closed rings, shirts therefore being produced more quickly . We, of course, use Steel, but unhardened, and have the luxury of automated machines, but the force required, or used anyway, to make ONE is huge. If water power was used, one would have to locate the right place to build a fabrica, or re-direct a suitable source of water, and build the appropriate machinery, if indeed machinery was used. If not, i can't imagine how rings could be stamped out effeciently, or in any number. Think how many Ringshirts were made during the whole Roman period !!! hock: . This is where my 'Human Factor' comes in. I can't imagine that people would go to all the that trouble when there is a much more simple alternative, which they surely knew about? If anyone can tell me of any source of information, i would be really grateful. And of course, if anyone can correct me on any point, i would be pleased to hear your remarks!
Take good care.
Adrian
( Gauis Peregre...Cohors IIII Dalmaticus)
Being new to this forum, i am still finding my feet, so i hope you bear with me! Before i get to the subject, i would like to tell you a little about my train of thought, by way of introduction, and to prepare you for anything else i write on the Forum! :wink: Firstly, anything i write is opinion and only that. As far as i am concerned, there is a difference between fact and opinion. Opinions are like noses...everybody has one! Facts are more like, say, a Saab 96 V4 Monte Carlo...rare, and if you really want one, you have to search hard! :lol: I am always open to other opinions. I think it was Ben Johnson that said " I may not agree with what you say, sir, but i defend to the death your right to say it!". It is my motto, and should be the motto of every Forum The desire to make things better or easier, and money/wealth. These have been both cause and effect for politics, religion, and of course war. The only 'modern thinking' i think exists, and some re-enactors i have met are particulary guilty of this, is that our forebears were more than happy to do extremely labour intensive work without trying to improve their lot, and were happy to wear and use uncomfortable and/or impractical clothing and equipment. There is always someone with a better idea. If it were not true, and mankind did not try always to make things better, we would still be hunter-gatherers living in caves. :wink:
Anyway, on to subject. I make ringmail, and i have read as much as i can find about Roman ringmail. It would appear that it was composed of alternate rings of rivetted and whole rings, and the general concensus was that the whole rings were stamped out of plate metal. I don't think so, and here's why ( bear in mind what i said above..). Firstly, having made quite a few shirts, i have a bit of a practical understanding of them. Until recently i was making my own rings, then i discovered ready made rings ( aaahhh...what bliss! :lol: ) and found that i only needed to open half the rings, and it honestly quartered the time! This is, of course why the rows of solid rings were used. I mean, i knew that, but now i have a practical understanding...( well, fluh..) I also happen to work in a place where washers are made, and it was this that really made me think. To stamp one ring out of plate metal takes quite some force. Therefore i think the solid rings were hammer welded. The rings would be already made. It would be so much easier to take half of them, heat them to the right temperature, and strike them in the right way. This, as i am given to understand, would produce a flat, sealed ring. On the other hand, going to the trouble of producing, or buying plate metal, and then indulging in some very labour intensive work, seems unlikely. We know the Romans made use of water power, so it could be that this was used, but think of the comparitive logistics and cost. even were one to use slaves, they and their families still have to be fed clothed and housed.( Please feel free to correct me here. As i understand it the Romans, broadly speaking, treated slaves well, especially if they worked hard and/or were skilled) so why have lots of slaves doing something that took lots of time, when you could have one or two making lots of rings in a comparitively short time? If, of course, slaves were used at all. My theory is that hammer welding rings is much much quicker at producing lots of closed rings, shirts therefore being produced more quickly . We, of course, use Steel, but unhardened, and have the luxury of automated machines, but the force required, or used anyway, to make ONE is huge. If water power was used, one would have to locate the right place to build a fabrica, or re-direct a suitable source of water, and build the appropriate machinery, if indeed machinery was used. If not, i can't imagine how rings could be stamped out effeciently, or in any number. Think how many Ringshirts were made during the whole Roman period !!! hock: . This is where my 'Human Factor' comes in. I can't imagine that people would go to all the that trouble when there is a much more simple alternative, which they surely knew about? If anyone can tell me of any source of information, i would be really grateful. And of course, if anyone can correct me on any point, i would be pleased to hear your remarks!
Take good care.
Adrian
( Gauis Peregre...Cohors IIII Dalmaticus)