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**Robert Vermaat** · 03-20-2005, 06:19 PM

I guess every individual will react differently. Today, a family member who's a police officer told me of his experiences in the riot squad over the past 15-20 years. Apparently, some individuals (on both sides) get the 'red haze' in their eyes and are capable of anything. Some guys have to be pulled back inside the line, while others (including himself at times) manage to 'hang back' and avoid violence, even in a very 'hot situation when shields and sticks were used. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

03-24-2005, 12:21 AM

Regarding the wedge formation, 
As a member of the ESG, I have taken part in many wedge charges, on the occasions the charge has been to an enemy group the comments from those on the receiving end have been unanimous in their description , in as as much as they were unable to check it's progress and likend the experience to being a set of bowling pins in a strike! It is a case of simple physics, the kinetic energy of 100 closely packed ( who ever witnessed an open order wedge from us must have caught us on an off day) armoured troops weighing in at around 150 pounds each including weapons and armour( for a skinny git) hitting a stationary object at a run is massive. Even if the first few men are downed the impetus will carry the formation forward , perhaps not very far but enough to funnel many of the enemy into a position where they are virtually surrounded and stand little chance of survival. The idea of multiple wedges to form a saw tooth would seem viable as a good tactic to break an extended enemy line as multiple breaks in the enemy formation and the associated slaughter of those enemy troops caught in the killing zones would have a great effect not only in terms of attrition but morale also. With the greatest respect to those armchair generals ( who are probably far more intelligent than myself), unless you have experienced close quarter combat the impact of this type of charge is difficult to understand, In my own experience during a debacle in the south atlantic some years ago , despite wire guided missiles, artillery and all the paraphenalia of modern warfare, it was the force,energy and agression of the bayonet charge that took ground and forced the enemy to withdraw.The wedge charge would seem to be the roman version of the bayonet charge but the aim is the same,to take the fight to the enemy and kill him!, brave, well trained, well disciplined troops armed with automatic weapons broke when subjected to this 23 years ago, I think the effect may well have been similar 2000 years ago. 
Ave 
Gaius Devonius

03-24-2005, 01:03 PM

Gaius Devonius 
I donÃƒâ€šÃ‚Â´t doubt at all of the impact of a tightly packed infantry formation, both phisical and moral, charging a battleline, specially if it is too thin. What I doubt is that the formation in question being a wedge, I think the cuneus was rather an attack column, that to me makes more sense, as it is equally fast but more difficult to halt by shooting down the front ranks. Besides, it is easier to redeploy in line, and as Vegetius himself recommended that reserve units to be deployed in cuneus that makes also more sense. The wedge formation makes more sense either to ease the manouvering of cavalry units, or for a unit to concentrate firepower, as was the case of the Byzantine cavlry wedge, it had 20 horsemen in the first rank, being more a column than a real wedge (interestingly, the men inside the formation were horse archers)

Crispvs · 03-27-2005, 10:34 PM

Aryaman, 
 
I too feel that the column style 'wedge' is a possibility but there is little or no evidence either way that I know of. 
Regarding shooting down the front ranks of an oncoming wedge, I do not believe that this would have been a factor of any significance because: 
A) a cuneum can break through an enemy line wthin a few seconds of beginning to form. If the soldiers know what to do the wedge would form in far less time than I think you are assuming. There is no reason why the rear of the cuneum could not still be forming and packing in as the front charged forward. It makes no difference if the wedge is loose and slightly fragmentory two seconds before the moment of contact. What is significant is that the wedge is a solid mass at the moment of contact. 
B) a cuneum would only need to cover a very short distance of maybe 15 to 20 yards to gain sufficient momentum to smash an enemy line. That is not much time to get in a good shot, particularly if you were not aware of the cuneum's likelihood until two seconds before it hit your line. Most re-enactment groups (mine included) give a misleading impression of a charging wedge, as they form up into a wedge formation, march forward some distance and then charge the last few yards, giving the impression of there being plenty of time for shooting. In reality only the final charge phase of this sequence would happen, as the co-ordinated wedge burst unexpectedly from the main battle line, which would probably be within easy javelin range off the opposite line. 
C) As I said above, wedges would only have been used when conditions were both right and the situation demanded them. Therefore it is unlikely that the Romans actually tried to use wedges against (for example) the Parthians. Against Celts or Germans however, who would have employed far fewer missile troops to keep the lines far apart, the sudden use of wedges, if conditions were conducive, could have been very effective. 
 
"Besides, it is easier to redeploy in line" 
 
It is actually very quick and easy to move from line to cuneun. Just as easy, I would contend from having done it numerous times myself, as projecting a section of the line forward to form a column. 
 
Crispvs

Felix · 03-30-2005, 08:19 PM

As I recall the text, the military treatise of Nikphoras Phocas (of the 10th century) describes the wedge formation explicitly, and with a diagram. This was a mixed formation of really heavy cavalry (barded horses as well as armoured men) with the core of the wedge made up of more lightly armoured men and horse archers. This formation has one man at the point, and the formation was designed for a unit 500 men. The Macedonian dynasty was the most militarily successful period of the later Roman Empire, and one must presume they knew what they were doing.

Felix · 03-30-2005, 08:28 PM

One of the Byzantine treatises describes how to marshal infantry units. (I think this is Maurice's Strategikon). The front line is composed of veterans. Eight lines back them up. The last line is also of veterans.

04-01-2005, 01:23 PM

Felix 
I recall instead the Praecepta Militaria describing the cavalry wedge as a formation of 20 men in the first rank, with 4 more men in each consecutive rank for a total of 504 men in 12 ranks. The presence of horse archers inside the wedge makes me think it could be a formation to easily redirect fire while protecting the archers from enemy cavarly, rather than a shock formation

marsvigilia · 04-03-2005, 06:32 PM

I'm still stuck trying to imagine a kevlar wedgie. 
OUCH!!! Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=marsvigilia>marsvigilia</A> at: 4/4/05 5:59 am

Felix · 04-04-2005, 01:34 AM

Aryman, 
 
You are absolutely correct, the standard Byzantine cavalry wedge was 20 men across the front. A few lines later, the possibility of using a reduced wedge, perhaps 10 men across the front.

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