Female Lorica Musculata

[tlclark]

At the end of the day someone commissioned it from an artist, and what gets paid for gets made :wink:

I want this cross-stitched and hung on my wall.

Good point.

Only art historians talk in terms of "models" or "types". Imagine someone coming along a thousand years from now and catergorizing sneakers by shape and color, when at the most we categorize them by brand and to a lot of us there just "sneakers". Yet that is exactly what we do all the time to ancient artifacts. I wonder just how arbitrary our knowledge or catergories really are. I suspect it might be embarassingly arbitrary.

[Sulla]

Yes just with say armour. We have so little knowledge we have to make great asumptions. I think we would be amazed at the variety they had. Taking into account personal tasts of the people having things made and the hand made nature of the armor.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmmm, I made that point once, somewhere! went down like a lead balloon!

[Arthes]

Well, the Romans were intimidated by Boudicca and scared of the women warriors....who hit harder than the men...

Ermm.. I suppose you have proof of that claim? :wink:
:lol: :lol:

:wink: :wink:
Plutarch- in 102 B.C. "the fight had been no less fierce with the women than with the men themselves... the women charged with swords and axes and fell upon their opponents uttering a hideous outcry."

Ammianus Marcellinus describes Gaullish wives as being even stronger than their husbands and fighting with their fists and kicks at the same time "like missiles from a catapult".

Dio Cassius on Boudicca "She was huge of frame, terrifying of aspect, and with a harsh voice. A great mass of bright red hair fell to her knees: she wore a twisted torc, and a tunic of many colours, over which was a thick mantle, fastened by a brooch. Now she grasped a spear, to strike fear into all who watched her."

A Roman empress who fought with the cavalry? hock: Now I know you're joking!!!

I may have her muddled up with another Roman female.....but

Junia Calvina Milonia Caecena Alba Terentia aka Triaria
Tacitus Bk3.77...Some criticized Triaria, Lucius' wife, for wearing a soldier's sword and behaving with arrogance and cruelty amid the grief and suffering of captured Tarracina.
Triaria was also described as having 'uncontrollable passions'...especially where her husband was concerned...
Bk2.63 Lucius Vitellius' wife Triaria displayed a venom scarcely credible in a woman and worked upon his fears by hinting that he had no business to win a reputation for clemency by endangering the emperor's life.

[Tarbicus]

Go on, Arthes! Go for it!!

[Robert Vermaat]

Allright Cristina, thanks for that. :wink:

Well, the Romans were intimidated by Boudicca and scared of the women warriors....who hit harder than the men...

Ermm.. I suppose you have proof of that claim? :wink:
:lol: :lol:

:wink: :wink:
Plutarch- in 102 B.C. "the fight had been no less fierce with the women than with the men themselves... the women charged with swords and axes and fell upon their opponents uttering a hideous outcry."

Whose women does Plutarch describe there?

Ammianus Marcellinus describes Gaullish wives as being even stronger than their husbands and fighting with their fists and kicks at the same time "like missiles from a catapult".

Is Ammianus describing Celtic women of his past or Gallo-Roman women of his present?

Dio Cassius on Boudicca "She was huge of frame, terrifying of aspect, and with a harsh voice. A great mass of bright red hair fell to her knees: she wore a twisted torc, and a tunic of many colours, over which was a thick mantle, fastened by a brooch. Now she grasped a spear, to strike fear into all who watched her."

Hmm, since he did not meet her, I have some doubts about that - maybe this is more comparable to tacitus describing Germans as being bigger and more warlike than the Celts for political reasons (whereas we know he was talking b...).

[Sulla]

Wish I had some time to research this more. Looks like it could be interesting

And thanks for the examples Arthes.

[tlclark]

Slightly OT here: A note on warrior Women...

A while back a feminist book came out called "Running with Wolves" or some such.

It looked at many tales of warrior women from past cultures including the Amazons, and argued that these were proto-feminist archetypes, proving that women had at times been dominant, aggressive, etc, all the familiar modern feminist tropes. It was an attempt to turn these warrior women into contemporary role models. It is also a completely bogus interpretation.

The Amazons are positive role models only from a modern perspective. To the Greeks and Romans, the Amazons were a demonstration of everything that was wrong with society when women were in charge. They were violent, barbaric, uninhibited, decadent, etc.

Usually when we hear descriptions of warrior women in ancient cultures, we think "Wow! Xena Warrior Princess!! They must have been some tough babes!" When in reality the reaction of most Romans at the time must have been repugnance. They were portrayed as the complete opposite of the just and proper role of women in society.

The description of Boudicca should probably be red as an insult, a result of the barbarism that can result when women are not "tempered" by a patriarchy. It is clearly not an endorsement.

Feminist fascination with dominant females is a modern fascination. Even during the women's suffragette movements of the 19th C. they argued against the masculinization of women.

[Tarbicus]

The Amazons are positive role models only from a modern perspective. To the Greeks and Romans, the Amazons were a demonstration of everything that was wrong with society when women were in charge. They were violent, barbaric, uninhibited, decadent, etc.

So why did cavalrymen have Amazons as the subject of many of their helmets, including the face masks? :wink:

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Not to mention the hygeine that went out the window with the Amazons....

Mind you my only source for that is Pressfield :lol: :lol: :lol:

Or a wander around Aberdeen! hock: hock:

Jim--

Because they were violent, barbaric, etc etc....... :lol:

[tlclark]

The Amazons are positive role models only from a modern perspective. To the Greeks and Romans, the Amazons were a demonstration of everything that was wrong with society when women were in charge. They were violent, barbaric, uninhibited, decadent, etc.

So why did cavalrymen have Amazons as the subject of many of their helmets, including the face masks? :wink:

And how many women were behind those masks? :wink:

This proves my point exactly, the Amazons were appropriate metaphors ... for men.

Scholars lapse into lots of errors when they attempt to shoe-horn modern ideals onto ancient peoples.

[Tarbicus]

But if a barbaric and decadent persona in appearance was acceptable for cavalry, then doesn't that open the door for more outlandish possibilities for the appearance of the Roman army as a whole?

Can someone translate this, please?

arma tersa sint, ferramenta samiata

I'm interested to see if there are alternatives to the usual translation out there.

[Sulla]

While the roman might have thought it barbaric and decadent to have women warriors it does not mean it never happened in roman society. It was no more acceptable than in the middle ages with joan of ark. I am sure there have always been examples of strong willed women that broke with the norm.