The Origins of the Limitanei

[Robert Vermaat]

Exactly! Are you agreeing with me, Robert, or disagreeing? ;-)

Agreeing I think.

Re. comites: Comes Rei Militaris was a title, strictly speaking, rather than a rank (literally 'Companion in Military Affairs' or something similar). Certain tribunes of the Scholae could hold this title, I believe. So, yes, rather a flexible expression, but in frontier defence terms I would say a comes usually outranked a dux...

Definately agreeing.

[Robert Vermaat]

Now, Paulinus is mentioned as Comes Paulinus, and the only Comes command in that region on the Loire is the Comes Tractus Aremoriciani, hence why I picked that one specifically. You are right that Aegidius did not control much of Belgica Secunda, the region hadn't been secure since Aetius died, and much of it had been acquired by Childeric. Dr. Kim theorizes that Aegidius and Syagrius were in fact essentially vassals of Childeric. However... he can be a bit overzealous in his work. While I'd say Syagirus possibly was under the control of Childeric/Clovis, Aegidius seems to have been independent of their influence.

Evan, I would not hold on to the Notitia this stricktly. After all, the ND was written about 70 years(!) before these events and we have no information about several parts of the commands mentioned in there. The Tractus may have been dissolved for all we know - after all, when Britannia was lost in the decades after the ND was written, a coastal command made less sense. After that, we know that a lot of coastal forts were abandoned - i would say that the Tractus was by no means the candidate you are looking for in the case of Paulus.

My idea? Paulus commanded a field army. One can doubt wheter limitanei still existed under Aegidius, or that they had been fully replaced by federate Franks. Aegidius and Syagrius were perhaps not vassals, but at best equal partners? But Paulus, whether independent or a commander of Aegidius, is not likely to have been a commander in the regular Roman defence of Gaul, under the regular Magister Militum per Gallias. I think we are way past that.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Evan, I would not hold on to the Notitia this stricktly. After all, the ND was written about 70 years(!) before these events and we have no information about several parts of the commands mentioned in there. The Tractus may have been dissolved for all we know - after all, when Britannia was lost in the decades after the ND was written, a coastal command made less sense. After that, we know that a lot of coastal forts were abandoned - i would say that the Tractus was by no means the candidate you are looking for in the case of Paulus.

The Comes Tractus Aremoriciani was a command in Britanny, not Britain...

And Guy Halsall's research suggests the Romans didn't truly consider Britain abandoned until the 440's, and that in archaeological contexts there is a continuity between Roman dress in Southern Britain and styles in North Gaul as well until the 440's.

Furthermore, the need to control the Armorican rebels (which admittedly were don primarily by Alans) and to counter Frankish or possibly Saxon incursions into Gaul necessitated the continued existence of the command.

My idea? Paulus commanded a field army. One can doubt wheter limitanei still existed under Aegidius, or that they had been fully replaced by federate Franks. Aegidius and Syagrius were perhaps not vassals, but at best equal partners? But Paulus, whether independent or a commander of Aegidius, is not likely to have been a commander in the regular Roman defence of Gaul, under the regular Magister Militum per Gallias. I think we are way past that.

I sincerely doubt he commanded a field army, the last recorded accounts of the existence of one were under Aetius. The existence of Limitanei is in fact more likely: Tours had a Garrison in 444/445, and of course we have Severinus' record of the collapse of Noricum.

Paulus is mentioned as being a commander of Aegidius, from Angers (Adecavus), which was in the Roman Province of Lugdunensis III also known as Aremorica. I can get you the original text, hold on.

EDIT: Okay Heather doesn't actually cite the passage, so I need to go to my primary sources and find it. This could take longer than expected.

[Robert Vermaat]

The Comes Tractus Aremoriciani was a command in Britanny, not Britain...

I know Evan. But the coastal commands rested on a naval coverage of the sea, which would have been long gone even by the mid-5th c. Also, if you have the archaeological picture in mind, you'd realise that the coastal forts had been long since in decline, and that the Tractus, as a coastal defense command, had long since lost its meaning to exist. hence my deduction that a coastal command mentioned in 394 would most logically have disappeared by 469. Including its limitanei and its commander. Frankish groups had moved into these areas for decades and I therefore doubt that both the Tractus or Belgica II still existed.

Furthermore, the need to control the Armorican rebels (which admittedly were don primarily by Alans) and to counter Frankish or possibly Saxon incursions into Gaul necessitated the continued existence of the command.

I disagree. A coastal command is fixed on coastal fortresses and harbours. What you suggest is based on a field force (hence the Alans) and in-land forts and/or towns. Quite the opposite. Furthermore, Roman military command was known to adapt its organisation when needed. Therefore I think that a new command was added when the need to control Armorica arose.

My idea? Paulus commanded a field army. One can doubt wheter limitanei still existed under Aegidius, or that they had been fully replaced by federate Franks. Aegidius and Syagrius were perhaps not vassals, but at best equal partners? But Paulus, whether independent or a commander of Aegidius, is not likely to have been a commander in the regular Roman defence of Gaul, under the regular Magister Militum per Gallias. I think we are way past that.

I sincerely doubt he commanded a field army, the last recorded accounts of the existence of one were under Aetius. The existence of Limitanei is in fact more likely: Tours had a Garrison in 444/445, and of course we have Severinus' record of the collapse of Noricum.

Based on? We are merely guessing here arne't we? mentioning command last attested 60-70 years early does not prove this part of the ND survived that late, unaltered.
Limitanei did survive (I would mention Procopius) but we don't know where. Along the Rhine and the Danube would indeed be ny favorite, but remember that Severin's limitanei and militia also did not make it to the period we're discussing now. Romans did defend themselves in northern Gaul c. 470, and an army existed to be incorporated into Clovis' Frankish army. Was it a collection of limitanei cohorts? Was it a personal force made up from Franks and Alans around the person of someone like Aegidius? We don't know. But hardly anything is recorded after the time of Aetius.

Paulus is mentioned as being a commander of Aegidius, from Angers (Adecavus), which was in the Roman Province of Lugdunensis III also known as Aremorica.

That's fine, but it does not tell us much about what happenen 20 years later, does it? Magnus Maximus was a commander under the count Theodosius and he became emperor.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Based on?

Sidonius Apollinaris Carmen V mentions the defence of Tours against the Franks.

I know Evan. But the coastal commands rested on a naval coverage of the sea, which would have been long gone even by the mid-5th c. Also, if you have the archaeological picture in mind, you'd realise that the coastal forts had been long since in decline, and that the Tractus, as a coastal defense command, had long since lost its meaning to exist. hence my deduction that a coastal command mentioned in 394 would most logically have disappeared by 469. Including its limitanei and its commander. Frankish groups had moved into these areas for decades and I therefore doubt that both the Tractus or Belgica II still existed.

That's really the interesting part about all of this. The coastal command in Gaul isn't mentioned in the Notitia, the Comes Tractus Aremoriciani commanded Limitanei garrisons in cities (and probably a few forts), about half of which were transferred into the field army under Stilicho or Constantine III (probably at the same time the Comes Britanniarum was transferred into the Gallic Army which would suggest 405 AD). So either way, the decay of the coastal forts does hold up in the face of the existence of this command in 464 (Heather gets the dating wrong.)

Plus, those regions were firmly under Roman control until 451, when Attila sent Odovacar to ravage the North Gallic countryside. Barring Aremorica of course, which after 448 fell under the control of the Armoricans and Litaui permanently it seems.

EDIT: Pulled up his command.

Tribunus cohortis primae novae Armoricanae, at Grannona in litore Saxonio
Praefectus militum Carronentium, at Blabia
Praefectus militum Maurorum Benetorum, at Benetis
Praefectus militum Maurorum Osismiacorum, at Osismis
Praefectus militum superventorum, at Mannatias
Praefectus militum Martensium, at Aleto
Praefectus militum primae Flaviae, at Constantia
Praefectus militum Ursariensium, at Rotomago
Praefectus militum Dalmatarum, at Abrincatis
Praefectus militum Grannonensium, at Grannono

Therefore I think that a new command was added when the need to control Armorica arose.

Again, I sincerely doubt this. With no available field forces, how could a new command have arose? Aremorica, other than the uprising in 435 which was put down by Huns in 437, was really only a problem after the loss of Africa, which left Aetius with 23,000 Comitatenses/Palatina and 31,500 Limitanei based on troop counts in the Notitia Dignitatum. A chunk of Aetius' field army was destroyed under Vitus in 446, and it was also ravaged by the Battle on the Catalaunian Plain. Everything else deserted after his death, and there's no indications of anything but Foederati after that.

Now, it is possible that Paulus could have been appointed Aegidius' Comes Foederatorum, and given a command of Franks. That conflicts with the mention of him being the Roman commander though, and the obvious fact that Childeric had an army of Franks at the battle.

mentioning command last attested 60-70 years early does not prove this part of the ND survived that late, unaltered.

The final edit date of the Notitia Dignitatum is usually assumed to be 419. The Comes Tractus Aremoriciani entry was probably last edited some time around 405. So 59 years to be precise, or if you go by the Notitia's last update, 45 years.

but remember that Severin's limitanei and militia also did not make it to the period we're discussing now.

I thought it was generally agreed that the Garrison at Batavis held out until 476? The Book begins at Attila's death, I know that, and the entry on the revolt at Comagenis coincides with Aetius' death in 454.

That's fine, but it does not tell us much about what happenen 20 years later, does it? Magnus Maximus was a commander under the count Theodosius and he became emperor.

How does this tell us anything about 20 years later? I'm talking about the year 464. I fail to understand your point here.

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Evan,

I think we have some basic misconceptions in the discussion, so I’d best rephrase my reply about why I think that the limitanei in NW Gaul were no longer present by the 460s.

Limitanei

Both the Tractus Armoricanus (et Nervicanus) and the parts of the Saxon Shore of Belgica II (and Britain) were on the coast, as we can clearly read in the ND (section XXXVII. Dux tractus Armoricani). This coastal command had been created from the late 3rd. c onwards and developed into the 4thc., which is where we find it in the Notitia Dignitatum. However, that system had lost it’s function when we get to the first part of the 5th c. The forts in Belgica II are all gone even earlier, the area being settled by Frankish federates. The British part of the system is gone too. The limitanei along the lower Rhine in belgica II have by then been gone for more than a century. Those along the Rhine are probably still present, which makes sense because there’s where the main threat comes from. Wwe find many of the limitanei units from the TA already in some field armies, which indicates that Roman high command had indeed a rethink about this part of Gaul. Now I read that you think that only half the troops from the TA were gone, but I wouldn’t know how one could make that stick, because after the ND we have no means to tell which unit served where.

The Notitia Dignitatum

I agree that the ND was perhaps revised c. 419, but only in parts. Many parts were certainly not updated past c. 400, and this fact means that we can’t be sure what the Roman army or its command structure looked like in 420, let alone the 460s. We see however that even during the time the ND was compiled (294-c.419 is the ‘wide’ theory), there are several commands being both created as well as scrapped. Which means that the Roman army was in constant flux, and by no means should we expect a command present in 400 to be there in 460 as well. In fact I would not expect it at all. The treat had shifted to the North and East, and I see indications that the TA had served its purpose already at the beginning of the 5th c.

Towns

Yes, Tours had a garrison and so had probably every other town. Some of those towns were mentioned as part of a Limitanei command, and some aren’t. Fact is, we can’t tell from any source who mentions that a town is defended, whether that means that its defense is part of an organized defense scheme commanded by an officer, let alone if it’s still called by a name last mentioned 50 years or so before. Which is why I believe that town defenses were just that – town defenses. Severin and his limitranei on the Danube are indeed a case in point. Those limitanei cease to exist as the control (and pay) from Italy vanishes. After that, towns are defended by a militia, no more.
And the fact (sure) that Tours had a garrison in 470 does not mean at all that a) Tours was therefore part of the TA, or b) that this means that the TA even existed or c) that Paulus was it’s commander because he was a comes. Comites commanded field armies originally, but in the same way that we see late Roman emperors officially being addressed (again) as ‘rex’, we should perhaps not stick to the limits of the term that we only know existed c. 400. Perhaps (as to be expected), a comes became ‘commander’? As that blasted Arthur of Britain was a ‘dux bellorum’ (whatever that meant at the time)?

Field army

Why would there be no field army in the 460s? Why would “everything else deserted after [Aetius’] death, and there's no indications of anything but Foederati after that” a) be true and b) mean that no field army existed after 454? I see no proof of the Roman forces having melted away, after all there must have been some power base for Avitus, that rebel Marcellus or Syagrius. That’s where federates like the Alans or Huns come in. The regular forces are more and more confined to fortifications (not just Gaul, everywhere) and the field armies are more and more comprised of federates or short-term mercenaries. But with Gallo-Romans between them as well, because there is still an exercitus Romanorum)to be incorporated into Clovis' Frankish army by 486. And I’ve already argued that this exercitus would not have comprised too many limitanei. Yes, it’s possible that Paulus only commanded Franks but I don’t think so. Childeric could have commanded his own Franks (as would the comes Arbogast no doubt) but that would not have counted as a ‘Roman army’ to later sources I believe.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

Now I read that you think that only half the troops from the TA were gone, but I wouldn’t know how one could make that stick, because after the ND we have no means to tell which unit served where.

Half of them are redundant in the Gallic Field Army listed as Pseudocomitatenses. That's how we know which ones were pulled and which ones were left behind.

I agree that the ND was perhaps revised c. 419, but only in parts. Many parts were certainly not updated past c. 400, and this fact means that we can’t be sure what the Roman army or its command structure looked like in 420

While this is true, we can cross reference the ND with other sources, such as Sozomen or Claudius Claudianus, to determine where many units were moved or destroyed, and even when they were. For example we know the Illyrian Command was possibly created in 402, and that the five Comitatenses units under that command were destroyed in 409 by Alaric.

So it is possible. But even in my analysis I admit there are a large number of discrepencies, such as whether or not the Spanish army was destroyed between 409-414.

Perhaps (as to be expected), a comes became ‘commander’?

To some extent this my be true. What I'm trying to argue is that there are two separate terms "Comes": Comes Limitis, like Dux Limitis but evidentily with the term Comes instead, and then of course the field army commanders called Comes Rei Militaris.

The need for the term Comes as a field army commander seems to have mainly disappeared in the west, as the armies were taken over by Magister Militum positions beginning in the 410's, with exceptions of course being the Comes Hispenias (Although this one was replaced in 441), Comes Dalmatiae, and Comes Africae.

Why would there be no field army in the 460s? Why would “everything else deserted after [Aetius’] death, and there's no indications of anything but Foederati after that” a) be true and b) mean that no field army existed after 454? I see no proof of the Roman forces having melted away, after all there must have been some power base for Avitus, that rebel Marcellus or Syagrius

Avitus had an army of Goths under Frederic and of course their kind Theodoric II, who raised him to the Throne.

Marcellinus probably had Aetius' army, several sources indicate he commanded Roman troops and Huns, and I doubt the Illyrian Field Army survived more than a few decades after its creation.Especially considering it would have been cut in 439 because the area wasn't under immediate threat and there was a need to keep other armies intact.

The texts don't make any indications of what forces Aegidius had: we know he had some Roman troops to call on because his commander Paulus had an army in 464 that fought alongside Childeric and Odovacar. I would assume what was left of the Alans of Sambida and Sangiban, both destroyed by Thorismund in 453, were under Aegidius' command since they are mentioned later in the 460's. And then of course Aegidius was known to have control over the Salian Frankish Foederati for a time, which were led by Merovaeus/Merovech until he died and his older brother Childeric finally returned in 457. Even then, Childeric and Aegidius seem to have been Allies, while Syagrius was probably a "Vassal" of Childeric/Clovis.

The regular forces are more and more confined to fortifications (not just Gaul, everywhere) and the field armies are more and more comprised of federates or short-term mercenaries. But with Gallo-Romans between them as well, because there is still an exercitus Romanorum)to be incorporated into Clovis' Frankish army by 486.

This is exactly what Liebschuetz argues, but I somewhat disagree. There are clear indications that many Roman units refused to campaign outside of a certain radius of their stationing, likely including field army units as well as Limitanei. However, the primary sources both show there was a significant Roman standing field army under Aetius, which subsequently disappears in 454/455, last mentioned by Sidonius Apollinaris in the pangeyric of Majorian.

Now, Roman doesn't necessarily mean "Roman Citizens." Drinkwater shows Aetius seemed to rely on Alemanni to supply the Limitanei Garrisons on the Rhine. These men were probably Germanic, but were serving in the original Foederati role: that is, the role of being trained, supplied, equipped, and paid as professional Roman soldiers. Under Stilicho and of course Aetius you begin to see the second role of Foederati: temporary allies recruited for the duration of a campaign under their own units and commanders.

Also, Soissons fell in 487, there was an engagement in 486 that Syagrius lost, but Syagrius and Novidunum weren't handed over until 487. In the 490's you also have the account of Clovis subduing the Ripuarian Franks on the Rhine, which I still argue is a misnomer for Riparienses garrisons manned by Germanic recruits.

And I’ve already argued that this exercitus would not have comprised too many limitanei. Yes, it’s possible that Paulus only commanded Franks but I don’t think so. Childeric could have commanded his own Franks (as would the comes Arbogast no doubt) but that would not have counted as a ‘Roman army’ to later sources I believe.

That whole battle is funny. Basically the Visigoths attacked north of the Loire, so an army comprised of Romans under Paulinus, Franks under Childeric, and Scirii under Odovacar (serving Childeric, my theory is that they came to Gaul in 451 and got left behind on accident, Kim argues they were left behind to mop up the defeated Roman coalition but that's another thread entirely) set out to counter them. The coalition won, but then the Romans turned on Childeric and Odovacar, and then Odovacar turned on Childeric, resulting in a 3-way battle in which Paulus was annihalated and Childeric pursued Odovacar to the mouth of the Loire in Aremorica.

So I sincerely doubt Paulus was commanding Franks. To me the Late Roman command structure is like a Puzzle, and one with missing pieces. those missing pieces can be solved and "images" (names) assigned to them.

Take for example the period between 439-452. We last know Litorius was Comes et Magister Militum per Gallias in 439, when he was killed. The next person to take command of the Gallic army is Vertericus, a Goth, in 439, who is quickly supplanted by Aetius (who then goes on to reverse the disaster and crush the Goths). That leaves a command gap in a necessary position between Litorius (435-439) and Agrippinus (452-457).

There are three names that appear as Roman commanders in that period: Aegidius, Majorian, and Ricimer. It's quite obvious from the treaty of 443, that Ricimer entered Roman service in that year, and we know he wasn't a Magister Militum until 456 when he is first attested as holding that command. That leaves the likely possibility that in the treaty of 443, he was appointed Comes Foederatorum, like Sigisvult had been in 426.

That leaves Aegidius and Majorian: Majorian is the one actually attested commanding a field army, in Sidonius Apollinaris Carmen 5.207 through 240something. Aegidius just receives a passing mention in Priscus.

Meanwhile, we also know that Aetius finally gained full control over the Empire in 450, when Theodosius II died from his horse accident. With nobody to oppose Aetius, he finally maneuvered to tie himself to the Imperial family via marriage of Gaudentius to Valentinian III's daughter. Now, Gaudentius was born in 440 or 442, which would make him 10-12 in 452, while Valentinian III's daughter would be at a marriageable age in 453 (assuming she was born in 439, being the second daughter, but it could have been as late as 457). This was the same time Majorian (then currently betrothed to Placidia) fell out of favor with Aetius and was removed from his command (and betrothal). If he was removed from his command in 452, this would perfectly coincide with the appointment of Agrippinus that same year.

Therefore, it is most likely that Majorian held the "per Gallias" command from the early 440's until 452. Aegidius' command is unknown, but it is known he operated in North Gaul, meaning that the Dux Belgicae Primae or Dux Belgicae Secundae commands are likely as both those provinces were firmly under Roman control while Aetius was in power (barring of course the Frankish war, but Aetius won that and took back everything including Tournai and Cologne, breaking the Frankish power base they had established over the past decade and reducing them to Foederati status. As a result it also kinda-sorta set up the circumstances for the Battle of Chalons, but again that's another thread).

The same thing can be done for the year 464, although I don't know all of the command positions in that year. Ricimer was still Magister Utriusque Militiae (after Majorian died it seems that the Junior command was elminated) and Agrippinus was last reported as Magister Militum per Gallias in 462. We know Aegidius also contested that position as he had held it under Majorian. Since Paulus was from Angers, which is in Aremorica, its possible he held the Comes Limitis command of Comes Tractus Aremoriciani et Nervicani.

The reason I argue it is this command is because the Romans liked to hold on to old titles: Patrician remained a title for almost 2000 years, although it meant almost nothing after the 7th century. So did Magister Militum, and several other old titles. Legio I and II Adiutrix both existed as placeholder units in official documents for centuries. The purpose of the command could have changed, but it is likely the same position, at least in the record books.

In 464 Aegidius was sick by the way, and died the next year. I can't remember what of, I think smallpox or something was theorized but there were a myriad of illnesses it could have been.