Any Ideas? Old weapons!

[Draconis]

I think this is a good time for everyone to take a step back and calm down. If someone has made mistakes, better to teach than prosecute. Given the circumstances, perhaps Jonny had no other options. Whats done is done. Personally, I would rather something like this be brought to light than thrown back and remain in oblivion. I did not understand that this find took place a long distance from his home and that travel expenses are involved. Regardless of the ins and outs of the law, two possibly ancient artifacts have been brought to light. The relevant question is what to do now. Jonny, you know where you found it right? If needed, you could find the spot again? Even if the site is out in what they call here, " The Wop Wops", perhaps you can take the artifacts to a museum nearby your home? Get what information you can about them, and find out whather these are indeed ancient items or just some old implements rusted beyond their actual age by nature. After all, why make a long and expensive trip for some old farm tools or whathaveyou? First find out if its worth going to the next step. If they ARE ancient, you might learn if the find is a significent one, worth pursuing. If you don't want to go further, you might tel them where you found the items, and let them pursue it if they choose. If you do want to go back to the find site, maybe someone from the museum could accompany you to look the site over, perhaps document it. This may be an exciting find, and we should see where it leads. There are a number of people in Europe scouring for these things, and slapping them on ebay or selling them to speculators who slap them on Ebay, they wouldn't bother talking to anyone. Rather than treat this event as a bastard child nobody wants, we should think constructively, what should be done next to find a course of action. In short, lighten up...Now what?

[Hermann]

Would you be hesitant to tell us which state you uncovered these in? You don't have to mention anything more. It may help us to help you.

[Tarbicus]

The logistics means I need to book a flight and head over again, and all the other expenses, not to mention hotels etc... I am considering this, but like I have said previously, I would do this out of respect for the people that have a genuine interest in the period mainly.

Or you could just send the photos you've already posted here to a museum or the relevant authorities. Look forward to you letting us know what they had to say in their reply.

[Robert]

@ Jonny Perhaps I do feel strongly about the subject, having been involved in a number of digs that were plundered by detectorists as soon as word got out. So if you feel wronged, I am sorry. Some detectorists are perfectly OK, assisting the completion of the archeological record, others are worse then vultures. Then also there is the fact that detectorists will happily dig right into the strata to retrieve a metal object, destroying its context. So it is not just the finds! People walking plowed fields with a detector, no problem, as long as they stay withing plow depth.

German law Denkmalschutzgesetz is very clear, so one is mistaken in presuming one is entiteled to dig or search on private land "with the aim of discovering artifacts" without permission from the local authorities. One is not!

2. Nachforschungen, insbesondere Grabungen, mit dem Ziel, Kulturdenkmale zu entdecken, bedürfen der Genehmigung der zuständigen Fachbehörde. § 13 Abs. 1 Satz 1 und Abs. 2 bis 5 gilt entsprechend.

Furthermore, any accidental finds should be reported.

§ 20 Funde

1. Wer Sachen, Sachgesamtheiten, Teile oder Spuren von Sachen entdeckt, von denen anzunehmen ist, daß es sich um Kulturdenkmale handelt, hat dies unverzüglich einer Denkmalschutzbehörde anzuzeigen. Der Fund und die Fundstelle sind bis zum Ablauf des vierten Tages nach der Anzeige in unverändertem Zustand zu erhalten und zu sichern, sofern nicht die zuständige Landesbehörde für den Denkmalschutz mit einer Verkürzung der Frist einverstanden ist.

2. Anzeigepflichtig sind der Entdecker, der Eigentümer und der Besitzer des Grundstückes sowie der Leiter der Arbeiten, bei denen die Sache entdeckt wurde. Nimmt der Finder an den Arbeiten, die zu einem Fund geführt haben, aufgrund eines Arbeitsverhältnisses teil, so wird er durch die Anzeige an den Leiter oder Unternehmer der Arbeiten befreit.

Perhaps you could take some pictures with a scalebar in it and send Christian a PM specifying where they were found. He could then advise you on any further course and smooth the path to proper authority. As you seem interested in "doing the right thing" that would be a good way to proceed IMHO.

[XorX]

everything said about finding historic items in germany.
The bigger thing on the pics is not a weapon but definitely a conical drill for wood as used by wheelers for centuries
google is your friend finding pics of similar tools

[Macedon]

I just moved the thread guys. Since we are discussing law, proper action and unidentified objects, I think it should be in the OT section.

To be honest, Johnny, I also was a bit shocked when, in your first post, you blatantly asked whether these items are of any value... It wasn't a good introduction as to your motives and intention. I hope you do the right thing.

[Tormenta]

Because of what happened(it wasn't the first time) I have a proposition regard this occurring.
It could be good to star a thread in the OT section with the informations about laws covering this matters in your respective countries. Nothing complicated:
- links to the laws, normally are written in your mother languages so maybe some words about it to get an idea,
- and links or contacts of the institutions, that are(or should be) in charge of the subject.

[Vindex]

I support "the beer guy".

Anyone legally on land with the intention of finding things should know which authorities to report them too not bring them to a forum and ask about value.

[Marder]

Hi,

@Robert - After reading the sections of the Denkmalschutzgesetz that you have kindly shown, I may add that these items were not found on any sort of protected property, nor was there any dig involved nor any ground moved, nor any intention to find 'ancient cultural artifacts'. To be precise they were not even on land!

The Law clearly states that 'cultural items' found on such sites must be reported. This is the next course of action.

I have looked at one kind members comments about the drill bit theory and he seems to be correct. Thank you for your straight forward input.

I am sending the items back to a friend, one of whom I have told where the area was and what the items may or may not be, and asked him to send pictures of the items to the local authorities. I have no time to mess around, thus I thought it was a better option considering the costs etc. So its out of my hands on Monday morning!

Thanks to everyone who constructively participated in this topic.

On another note - Due to my profession and the nature of my work I am forced to ask a moderator to delete the topic, as I have had trawlers that were able to dig up my private life on other occasions.

Kindest Regards and thanks everyone for the help and guidance.

[Robert]

Brilliant, XorX, it was only when you posted your verdict on the larger object the image snapped into relief and I saw it was indeed an auger for beams and the like. The Roman ones I know of have a less long cutting surface, those are more spoon shaped. I made one for a fellow who wanted to show Roman woodworking. The pointy thing could well be an agricultural implement, like the teeth set on a old cultivator.

@Tormenta Many European countries have legislation that covers the digging with the intent of finding artifacts. Laws in Germany and the Netherlands are very much the same on that subject. Now, it does not strictly cover magnet fishing, but is clear about the obligation to report finds, however these were done.

We just this week had some guy here show up on an antiques TV program who had dug up a Roman bronze drinking set ten years ago in an area being archeologicly excavated near Nijmegen. It had never been reported or documented. That is causing a bit of a stink in the archeological community, for sure!

@Jonny we seem to have cross posted. Sorry to hear about those trawlers. Your proposed conduct is certainly commendable.

[Bradley]

I don't know what it is, I just know it looks cool.

[Tarbicus]

Due to my profession and the nature of my work I am forced to ask a moderator to delete the topic, as I have had trawlers that were able to dig up my private life on other occasions.

It just gets more and more cryptic.