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+--- Thread: Hamata doubling attachment (/showthread.php?tid=9934)
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Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-18-2007
I've read in a few places that the shoulder doubling on lorica hamata was attached at the back with straps and buckles. Is this correct? Is this the only way or was it also done by attaching with the rings (as I think most reproductions do)?
If anyone have any information, sources or images of this it would be much appreciated!
Thanks.
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Peroni - 07-18-2007
Thge only example I am aware of with buckles is a consolidated lump of mail in Colchester Museum. It was found at the Lexden tumulus and dated to 30BC, so indicating that it is of British origin.
The buckles are visible within the lump, but there's also no way of telling if they were for the attachment of the shoulder doubling or if they were for a side fastening.
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-18-2007
In the hamata section on the Legio XX handbook it says: "two surviving Roman shirts from Britain have small buckles riveted to the back, presumably to secure the shoulder doubling."
If it's riveted to the back I can't see what else it would have been for, however it doesn't mention the source for this information is or where the finds were made on the website.
I'd like to know what the evidence is either way (ring vs buckle attachment).
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Tarbicus - 07-18-2007
Quote:small buckles riveted to the back, presumably to secure the shoulder doubling."How do they know it's the back?
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-18-2007
Good question!
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Matthew Amt - 07-18-2007
Uh, oh, that's my site so I better stand up and take my lumps, here! I probably got that information from Erik D. Schmid, but at this point I honestly don't remember exactly how much detail he went into, or if any of it was conjectural rather than hard fact. I may even have leapt to a few conclusions myself! I have seen a couple fragments of mail here and there (JRMES, for example) with little buckles riveted to them, so that was definitely done, but of course their purpose can only be guessed at. My understanding with the more complete find(s) was that the buckles were on the back of the shirt or maybe on the underside of the doubling, but in either case pretty clearly meant for attaching the latter to the former. But like any good game of "Telephone", no idea how solidly the actual remains support all that!
Sorry... Go ask Erik!
Matthew
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-19-2007
Thanks for the answer Matthew. Erik where are you!
Does anyone know what the evidence is for attaching with rings? Or is this just done because it's the simplest way?
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Peroni - 07-19-2007
Read this thread...
http://w10.eleven2.com/~joorthuy/rat/vi ... a77dc9a0c8
It is concerning Erik's reconstruction based on the Sheepen find. Further down the thread I have posted some pictures from the Colchester museum of the actual fragments of the shirt. IMO There's no way of telling which portion of the shirt the buckles are attached to.
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Erik D. Schmid - 07-19-2007
True, at present we do not know how the buckles were used. However, it just seemed a good way to attach the doubling making it easier to remove when needed. It really is no more right or wrong than using a row of links to connect it. This was discussed at length before it was done and was not just a flight of fancy on my part. :lol:
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Peroni - 07-19-2007
Quote:It really is no more right or wrong than using a row of links to connect it.
Very true!
What sculptural evidence do we have? The Ahenobarbus relief shows the back of mail shirts with doubling. IIRC a cavalryman getting on his horse(?)
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Marcus Mummius - 07-19-2007
I've attached the doubling on one of my mailshirts with four buckles too and can say that it's a very easy and flexible system.
can also see a side opening in a hamata (that is closed with buckles when the shirt is put on) be very handy. Putting on my hamata over my subarmalis with pteryges is hell. I made the pteryges outof a lot of layers of linen and they are pretty stiff. The waist pteryges are no problem but the shoulder pteryges somehow always end up on my back when I put on the hamata. Someone always has to help by pulling the through the armholes into the correct position. I can see how a hamata with side opening would avoid this problem.
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-19-2007
Thanks for the information everyone!
Peroni, thanks for the link. That thread is just what I was looking for!
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-20-2007
Erik,
I've looked at the pictures of your reproduction in the thread posted by Peroni. It looks very nice!
Regarding the number of buckles - did you actually find 4 buckles on the original hamata or is this just you interpretation of how it could have been?
Do you have any pictures of the original?
Thanks!
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Peroni - 07-20-2007
Quote:Do you have any pictures of the original?
Yes! here it is....
![[Image: gold20chainmail20col.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/gold20chainmail20col.jpg)
The buckle/ hinge plate remains are small and mostly hidden among the mail (poor quality pic I'm afraid) You can see the remains of two IIRC.
I will be going to Colchester next weekend hopefully so will confirm then.
Re: Hamata doubling attachment - Lucius Poblius - 07-20-2007
That's great Peroni! Let us know what you find out in Colchester.
You have the honour of being the first person to get laudes from me for being so helpful