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+--- Thread: Cooler lorica hamata? (/showthread.php?tid=9865)
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Cooler lorica hamata? - Alexandr K - 07-11-2007
Hi reenactors,
I've been reading the article "Cavalry Equipment and Tactics on the Euphrates Frontier" by A. D. H. Bivar. On page 278 he mentions that one of the advantages of mail armour over other types could be that in hot climates it would be cooler to wear. What are your experiences? In a hot sunny day, is the lorica hamata significantly cooler to wear than segmentata or squamata? Or is the difference rather small?
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Gaius_Calvus - 07-11-2007
I would say that is true -- if one did not wear a subarmalis. Since a hamata is not very good protection without a subarmalis, and since to be effective a subarmalis needs to be fairly substantial, then I would say that one is no "hotter" than the other.
Just my experience, since I wear a hamata with a subarmalis pretty regularly.
Regards,
Edge
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - John M McDermott - 07-11-2007
The author probably never put on a mail shirt. A lot of historians and archeaologists I have read come to conclusions, that, once you try them out, just don't work.
Mail without a subarmalis is worse than no armor at all. How a subarmalis was made is a mystery, but there are tantalizing clues. There are several threads that cover this tortuous trail here on the RAT.
Recently, a friend of mine made a discovery that may be an important breakthrough in this quest, though at the time he is working on it, and, out of respect for him, I won't go into it till he is finished.
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Crispvs - 07-11-2007
I have seen people wearing mail (and subarmali) sweat so much on a hot day the sweat soaked right through the padded backs of their subarmali and caused their mail to rust that very day.
I have not seen this happen with plate armour, although I must admit to sweating like the proverbial pig on occasions in the past when wearing armour.
Crispvs
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - John M McDermott - 07-11-2007
And here is the thing:What was the subarmalis made of that produced the sweating?
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Alexandr K - 07-11-2007
Hi,
I too thought that subarmalis would do its job and the differences are therefore small. But exactly because I had never been wearing any one of those three types of armour I asked you, experienced ones.
Thank you for your answers.
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Crispvs - 07-11-2007
John,
The subarmali in question were made of two to three layers of blanket wool quilted between outer layers of linen. This level of padding, incidentally, was sufficient to protect the wearer from most bruising and any breaking during full strength combat. Exactly how this combat would have compared to that of a real battle can only be speculated but it did not involve pulling blows.
Crispvs
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-11-2007
there is a picture in the book 'Roman Warfare' by Adrian Goldsworthy, that has often made me think it could be a representation of a subarmalis.
If anyone has access to it, it is the first picture after the acknowledgements, the guy on the left of the pic. squares with holes in them, with small peturges. Seems if it as supposed to be chainmail, the artisits would have been very accurate in their representation, considering thedetail on the other figures.
Perhaps a perforated type of subarmalis to allow breathing?
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - John M McDermott - 07-11-2007
Well, this has all been discussed before on the RAT. A good subarmalis has to act in conjunction with the mail and not give the wearer heat exhaustion.
I have never felt a subarmalis was meant to give too much protection from blunt trauma. To really be effective at this it would have to immensely thick.
But of what substance? There has been no satisfactory answer, until now.
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-11-2007
well, ok, but no one has mentioned this picture before as such. I think it has possibilities as a leather/combination of material subarmalis.?
You know the picture I would assume?
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Crispvs - 07-11-2007
John,
Just to clarify, the subarmali I was talking about (or gambesons as we called them in my eleventh century combat days), although hot, did not cause anything approaching heat exhaustion in their wearers. The overall thickness was probably similar to the thickness of the tip of your little finger and acted extremely well to protect from blunt trauma. We were very impressed by its performance as we too had assumed that greater thickness would be required for the necessary level of protection.
Crispvs
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Peroni - 07-11-2007
Alex wrote...
Quote:What are your experiences? In a hot sunny day, is the lorica hamata significantly cooler to wear than segmentata or squamata?
I have worn both mail and scale on very hot days. Scale is MUCH hotter as it is 'windproof' whereas the mail does allow air movement. The greater surface area of scale does absorb a lot of heat from the sun too.
Another factor of scale armour is the added layer of the backing material. Mine was heavy linen canvas. Breathable as a fabric, but when you attach what is effectively a metal tiled roof to it it gets mighty warm inside! :oops:
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-11-2007
But, the main thing was ,you looked good as you collapsed from heat exhaustion :lol: 8)
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Peroni - 07-11-2007
LOL!! :lol: :lol:
Re: Cooler lorica hamata? - Alexandr K - 07-12-2007
Thank you, Peroni, for your comments. Very interesting.
Greetings
Alexandr