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Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Printable Version

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Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-12-2007

ok lol


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - marsvigilia - 07-12-2007

Quote:Well, most armourer's would make armour to fit the intended wearer, so perhaps he has a good reason to make the plates larger, giving the size of some of his customers.......

But Sean appears to be more than doubling the size of the breast plates. hung vertically, the original plates would maybe fit a two foot tall leprechuan. Is that the secret of the legions? They were really leprechauns. Wait the rest of the armor would be too big for leprechauns. So what to do?

If we start with vertical plates as an absolute, then why are the breast plates magically small with a 2 inch death grip on the neck? While the rest of the armor might be for a smaller person, but not a leprechaun. What to do? What to do?

Well the breast plates could be rotated so they cross at an angle. But no, that would mean changing our mind about the whole vertical thing. The obvious solution is to ignore the evidence, double the size of the breast plates, change their shape, and "alacazam" problem solved.

This makes so much more sense than just rotating them a little. (drip with sarcasm)

Bottom line when evidence contradicts theory, change the theory not the evidence.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Hibernicus - 07-12-2007

Quote:The point that Sean was attempting to make was that this was junk/trash that was being abandoned and that therefore we should not consider the shapes to be reliable.
Tony Dah m

I have been interpreted very incorrectly.

Is not junk the kind of stuff that one might have use for later therefore hangs on to it for later use. ref: kitchen junk drawers?

An aside: As I look into my kitchen junk drawer I see stuff that probably should be trash... but not just yet.... ...!

And do we know for a fact why the Hoard was buried or why the items in it were not simply thrown into the fort's trash piles? That would clearly define the items as trash in my opinion. But that is not what happened. The items (some wrapped in cloth.... was it oiled cloth??) were placed in a well crafted box (opinion), that was covered in leather, egded in bronze, lidded (no hinges or latch) and deliberately buried.

The only facts we have regarding the armor are the armor pieces themselves in their current condition. We can and do drawn inferences and conclusions from those pieces and these opinions and interpretations, sometimes make for educational and/or entertaining discussion.

Whether the Hoard was Junk, Trash or Treasure has no relevance. There is no fact related to these terms... only opinion.

I suggest that the Hoard contents could be junk. I stand by that.. unmoved, firmly footed, defiantly fisted, granite jawed, anchored against the assailing winds yet bending like the ancient mighty noble sheltering ent-like oak in a storm, yielding but deeply rooted, limbs flailing back and forth, whipped by the chilll winds of time, resisting fire and flood, stately in demeanor, wise with time, acutely aware of the insects and rodents burrowing amongst my gripping deeply grown root mass, the avian ones nesting amongst my limbs, twigs and leaves, my self beingness accutely conscious of the symbiosis of fungus and leaf mold for health and disease resitance as well as proper acidity of soil, carefully shielding my roots from compaction with deep layers of decades old mulch, leaves catching rain and dripping said moisture in abundance about the perimeter of my crown, protecting my wind groaning trunk from the potential rot where limbs might crack or peckers burrow or pestering gnawning insects invade, a crown of leaves, protecting those who seek comforting shelter in its shade, providing a seasonal burst of joyous color bringing a few precious weeks of happiness to a land creeping into the deep dark recesses of Autum followed by the biting frigidity of Winter's long nights, yet with slow steady plodding rythmic beat of time and the changing orbit of Gaia sprouting nuts a-plenty, providing an abundance of uses for those who know how to use what is freely given and thus I am called Hibernicus, Conqueror of Winter!! (insert tuba dn cornu music at this point). Pull back camera as Sol rises bright and colorful, rays jutting heaven-ward, a bank of storm ripped clouds on the mountainous horizon showing the oaken Hibernicus on a hil top silhoueted against the newly dawning day, the broad plain of the riverine valley, light relflecting and glinting off the life giving surface of the meandering river, a wisp of smoke rising from thenearby shepherd's shanty, a young woman, ripe with child, the rising sun turning her finely woven linen frock diaphonous as she caresses the face of her husband, looking up into his face with a gaze that spans all eternity, the blue birds of happinness......... ......... ........

...... we interupt this program with the following emergency broadcast signature:


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Hibernicus - 07-12-2007

As previously stated, I'll post pics of replica copies of the originals when they are done. Those might well be worth critiquing

I also challenge others to do the same. There is a great deal to be learned from doing.

We might all learn something from the various interpretations that will arise.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - sulla felix - 07-12-2007

Well for what its worth I personally think Matt Lukes work is the closest thing you'll see to a "replica", based on the available evidence. I am trying to make something as authentically as I can based on the evidence which should be finished soon (hence my starting this thread).

Looking forward to seeing your replicas Hibernicus.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-12-2007

Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar:1lte71cw Wrote:Well, most armourer's would make armour to fit the intended wearer, so perhaps he has a good reason to make the plates larger, giving the size of some of his customers.......

But Sean appears to be more than doubling the size of the breast plates. hung vertically, the original plates would maybe fit a two foot tall leprechuan. Is that the secret of the legions? They were really leprechauns. Wait the rest of the armor would be too big for leprechauns. So what to do?

If we start with vertical plates as an absolute, then why are the breast plates magically small with a 2 inch death grip on the neck? While the rest of the armor might be for a smaller person, but not a leprechaun. What to do? What to do?

Well the breast plates could be rotated so they cross at an angle. But no, that would mean changing our mind about the whole vertical thing. The obvious solution is to ignore the evidence, double the size of the breast plates, change their shape, and "alacazam" problem solved.

This makes so much more sense than just rotating them a little. (drip with sarcasm)

Bottom line when evidence contradicts theory, change the theory not the evidence.

Well you know what they say about sarcasm.....

And about changing the evidence to suit theories, there are quite afew people who do that regularly when it comes to sculptural evidence...

but hey, thats for another post.... :lol: :roll:


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-12-2007

Yes Matts stuff is great, no one here is arguing that Sulla.....


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Gaius Julius Caesar - 07-12-2007

Quote:
Gaius Julius Caesar:fk4u0262 Wrote:except thay are almost 2000 years old, are corroded together and not 100% intact? Who can truely say how thay are supposed to fit? And is that the one where the hinges are rivetted together so the hinge doesn't function? they are not new pieces by all account.

Yes they are corroded, but they didn't shrink. This isn't a t-shirt thrown in the dryer. There is no way that corrosion would make the pieces smaller. Just these breast plates. All of them more or less uniformly.

Face it the historical pieces can NOT fit together as Sean advocates. That is why he adjusts the sizes and shapes in order to fit his theory.

The mystery is why in this case he does not adjust his theory to match the evidence rather than the other way around.

shrink?


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Tarbicus - 07-12-2007

Quote:And about changing the evidence to suit theories, there are quite a few people who do that regularly when it comes to sculptural evidence...

but hey, thats for another post.... :lol: :roll:
Meaning? So start a thread. :wink: A lot of generalisation when you say "sculptural". That could mean "propaganda", "funerary", triumphal". Which is it? I personally think "Columns" are 90% unreliable so far when it comes to detail.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - marsvigilia - 07-13-2007

Quote:I suggest that the Hoard contents could be junk. I stand by that.. unmoved, firmly footed, defiantly fisted, granite jawed, anchored against the assailing winds yet bending like the ancient mighty noble sheltering ent-like oak in a storm, yielding but deeply rooted, limbs flailing back and forth, whipped by the chilll winds of time, resisting fire and flood, stately in demeanor, wise with time, acutely aware of the insects and rodents burrowing amongst my gripping deeply grown root mass, the avian ones nesting amongst my limbs, twigs and leaves, my self beingness accutely conscious of the symbiosis of fungus and leaf mold for health and disease resitance as well as proper acidity of soil, carefully shielding my roots from compaction with deep layers of decades old mulch, leaves catching rain and dripping said moisture in abundance about the perimeter of my crown, protecting my wind groaning trunk from the potential rot where limbs might crack or peckers burrow or pestering gnawning insects invade, a crown of leaves, protecting those who seek comforting shelter in its shade, providing a seasonal burst of joyous color bringing a few precious weeks of happiness to a land creeping into the deep dark recesses of Autum followed by the biting frigidity of Winter's long nights, yet with slow steady plodding rythmic beat of time and the changing orbit of Gaia sprouting nuts a-plenty, providing an abundance of uses for those who know how to use what is freely given and thus I am called Hibernicus, Conqueror of Winter!! (insert tuba dn cornu music at this point). Pull back camera as Sol rises bright and colorful, rays jutting heaven-ward, a bank of storm ripped clouds on the mountainous horizon showing the oaken Hibernicus on a hil top silhoueted against the newly dawning day, the broad plain of the riverine valley, light relflecting and glinting off the life giving surface of the meandering river, a wisp of smoke rising from thenearby shepherd's shanty, a young woman, ripe with child, the rising sun turning her finely woven linen frock diaphonous as she caresses the face of her husband, looking up into his face with a gaze that spans all eternity, the blue birds of happinness......... ......... ........

...... we interupt this program with the following emergency broadcast signature:

LMFAO. Well done Sean. It was a little late when I posted last night, and I may have been a little harsh. No offense intended. Just a friendly disagreement.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Magnus - 07-13-2007

Quote:I have been interpreted very incorrectly.

Is not junk the kind of stuff that one might have use for later therefore hangs on to it for later use. ref: kitchen junk drawers?

An aside: As I look into my kitchen junk drawer I see stuff that probably should be trash... but not just yet.... ...!

And do we know for a fact why the Hoard was buried or why the items in it were not simply thrown into the fort's trash piles? That would clearly define the items as trash in my opinion. But that is not what happened. The items (some wrapped in cloth.... was it oiled cloth??) were placed in a well crafted box (opinion), that was covered in leather, egded in bronze, lidded (no hinges or latch) and deliberately buried.

I don't think you've been misinterpreted. Perhaps you just aren't explaining clearly.

A minor point, but who takes the time to wrap up and package junk to such an extent to obviously protect it from the elements, but from being stolen or taken as well?

The "junk" in your drawer Sean, do you have a lock on this junk drawer of yours, and is each individual piece wrapped up in wax paper or a ziplock bag? I doubt it.

Junk? I don't think so. You don't go through that much effort to preserve something that has little value, unless of course it has a lot of value. Which, by definition means it most assuredly is not junk.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Magnus - 07-13-2007

But I think tony has a valid point about sizing up the armour proportionately. Otherwise wouldn't the accuracy in terms of the original components of the corbridge hoard mean that your seggies Sean are in fact much less authentic?


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Hibernicus - 07-13-2007

We make 'em to fit. Sometimes plates appear to get a bit out of kilter in order to fit well and on larger chested guys the sizes might appear disproportionate..

Please, wait to see those I make that are replicas. I may even have some young men who can fit into them by way of illustrating that they were made for men with small dimensions.

Jokes about leprechauns not withstanding.... :?

And keep in mind that I do not disagree that the Hoard cuirasses may fit better when overlapped but slightly overlapped and not as illustrated earlier in this thread.

My son's seg, almost finished, will be the first I post, slightly larger than the Hoard, closer to the Hoard than the larger sizes we usually need to wear.






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Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - Hibernicus - 07-13-2007

Quote:A minor point, but who takes the time to wrap up and package junk to such an extent to obviously protect it from the elements, but from being stolen or taken as well?

People who thin it has some value either for later recovery or to keep it from falling in to the hands of an enemy.


Quote:The "junk" in your drawer Sean, do you have a lock on this junk drawer of yours, and is each individual piece wrapped up in wax paper or a ziplock bag? I doubt it.

The Hoard has no lock, latch or hinges.

I have several items in my junk drawer in ziplocks. Waxpaper falls apart way too readily! Bundled? .....hang on a sec... (tic-toc tic-toc...) yup! The wife rubber-banded some curtain hook devices,.. umm.... does rubber-banding qualify as bundling?

The junk steel and seg bits in the workshop are protected from the elements. They are oiled heavily before being stored away in boxes.

I think the Hoard is junk... opinion. NBD. Its not treasure. Its has some value, otherwise why hang on to it.... value to those who kept it around..... for how long? .... and perhaps they determined that it wasn't worth hauling away or there was not enough room to haul it away (not my ideas btw) and since most of the items can't be destroyed by fire that burying it and thus denying it to an enemy was ..wise? All speculation, of course.

It has been said that one man's junk is another man's treasure... so, perhaps I should retract my comment about treasure and say that the Hoard's value is relative to the moment in time that the determination was made that it needed to be buried....

None of us knows for certain.


Re: Corbridge A Breastplates - to cross or not cross diagonally? - sulla felix - 07-13-2007

Quote:Yes Matts stuff is great, no one here is arguing that Sulla.....

Not to disagree with you...but when somebody claims they are making a "replica", I think it is important to determine just what they mean by that. If you actually read the thread the point is crossing breast plates which, if you make a "replica" of the actual evidence, IMHO you simply cannot avoid, unless of course you have some evidence to the contrary :wink:

Matt has presented evidence. I have yet to see anybody else really do that in this thread (with the exception of one of Tarbicus's latest post of the Corbridge B breast plate and the Kalkreise breast plate - which in itself is interesting due to the difference in width of those two examples).

Empirical analysis can only be useful if it is based upon observations relative to the actual evidence IMHO.