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+--- Thread: Buttonholes in paenula? (/showthread.php?tid=9702)
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Buttonholes in paenula? - Caballo - 06-18-2007
Having got some lovely paenula brass closures from Nodge Nolan, I am wondering whether the Romans used buttonholes, or whether leather loops were used (as seems more common with fellow re-enactors).
The Camomile soldier (as drawn here by Mike Bishop) seems to have buttonholes- but I'd appreciate your thoughts?
![[Image: camst.jpg]](http://www.armatura.connectfree.co.uk/images/camst.jpg)
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Matt Lukes - 06-18-2007
A close-up of the buttons on the Camomile Street Soldier's paeunla shows them to be right on the seam suggesting to me that there are no button holes but rather loops- I'd expect an overlap if there were holes, rather than the two edges meeting like they do...
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Tarbicus - 06-18-2007
I wonder if they're the knots of ties? Would be a lot easier.
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Crispvs - 06-18-2007
When I had my paenula done up with toggles and loops I found it very difficult to position either the loops or the toggles in such a way that a gap did not open in the middle by some of the material turning under. I moved and adjusted the loops and toggles five times before deciding to go with the easiest interpretation of the majority of the sculptural evidence and simply sew up the front and avoid fastenings altogether.
Crispvs
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Marcus Caecilius Avitus - 06-18-2007
I am afraid I blindly followed modern convention, with button holes as it seemed the only way to make a weatherproof closure (other than following the example of Crispus).
But now I'm getting increasingly concerened as button holes just don't sem to crop up anywhere else in Roman clothing (cue some smart**se with a quote of contemprary buttons). :evil:
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - John Conyard - 06-19-2007
Good morning,
I sometimes do play a 1st century soldier. Looking closely at the evidence I opted for simple loops on my cloak. I used waxed linen string, pushed through the wool and simply knotted into a loop. With some careful adjustment it was possible to get the edges of the cloak to close edge to edge. But at times one edge does turn under, however the scarf helps.
PAENULA - Graham Sumner - 06-19-2007
Hi
I have used two types of 'Button and loop' fastener, a round example Type Vb and a bar one Type IX on my reconstructed Paenula . This was suggested by the Camomile sculpture which appears to have two different types of fastener, two round ones and possibly two bar ones although the position of one fastener has been damaged on the original sculpture.
Other Paenula cloaks like one on the Chatsworth relief, which has four bar types, also appear to be closed at the front by fasteners but there are others like those on the Cancelleria relief that have no obvious means of front fastening and may be stitched as Crispus suggests.
Fasteners are found on many military sites but they do not appear to be found after the second century. If they were Paenula fasteners this might be explained because the Sagum cloak fastened with a fibula had replaced the Paenula as the more popular military cloak. However the Paenula did continue in use and was still worn by soldiers in the early fifth century. The Caracalla for instance is basically a longer version of the Paenula cloak.
'Button and loop fasteners' have also been regarded as parts of horse harness fittings and even terminals on girth straps. So there is no real consensus of opinion as to what they actually are. This is I guess were re-enactment comes in. My own experience is that they are not very good as Paenula cloak fasteners but that could be due to my own inexperience of how to attach them properly. It looked to me that a wooden toggle and leather loop like a modern duffel coat would work much better.
Source
'Button and Loop Fasteners in the Roman Provinces'.
J.P. Wild. Britannia Vol 1 1970
Graham.
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Hibernicus - 06-19-2007
Graham, could you please post pics or drawings of the "button and loop" fasteners?
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Nerva - 06-19-2007
Egyptian finds have pads for loops, no holes.
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Caballo - 06-19-2007
Went round today to see the original in the Museum of London (the joy of working in the City) , and the "roundels" are clearly on the seam, with distinct cloth folds either side.The parallel lines at the bottom to me look like a thread or leather horizontal stitch to hold the paenula at the the top of the "W".
The options appear to be:-
-Two round brooches
-A button hole (? unlikely given positioning over the seam?)
-Round button and very short leather loop (NB: no trace of ANY loop on the sculpture that I could see)
-Mistake by the sculptor
I buy Crispus' idea that some were fully stitched, but some clearly had fastenings. The question is how....????
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Robert - 06-19-2007
It would seem the loops were stiched on the inside of the cloth, perhaps allowing for a hem on both sides. This would create a good closure, as the material would gain a certain stiffness. The round button would be on the outside of the right side (for the viewer) flap. When fastened, this would pull the two hems close together. Just a thought .....
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Caballo - 06-20-2007
Roert,
Good idea- I'll try that out and post pics.
Cheers
caballo
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Caballo - 06-24-2007
As promised, an experimental attempt.
![[Image: IMG_1333.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/PaulHB/IMG_1333.jpg)
The "buttons are attached with a leather loop that is put through the material and knotted. Important to use thin leather - my first attempt used a thicker thong that didn't work as it wouldn't go completely around and under the "button".
One thing I noticed is that the nodules at the top of the button are not simply decorative, but help to stop the loop slipping off.
I've also used a reinforcing leather piece at the top and bottom of the sewn together edges- this is a speculative reconstruction of the "bar" seen at the bottom of the sewn together section. This part would be most vulnerable to wear if simply sewn together. I've added a second reinforcement at the top of this section.
Key thing that this doesn't replicate is the "button" sitting directly on the seam as in the Camomile soldier. My only thought is that maybe there are two seams with cloth "underlapping" to create more cover at the front- but any suggestions??
Overall, it doesn't provide full neck cover, but the Camomile soldier seems to be wearing a thick focale/ scarf to keep him warm and dry
Look forward to your thoughts- important given how wet the last two UK events have been.........
:?
Cheers
Caballo
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - sulla felix - 06-25-2007
Nice job Caballo! What time period do these brass closures date to?
Re: Buttonholes in paenula? - Caballo - 06-25-2007
Thanks- the fasteners were found in Arbeia (South Shields)- 1st-2nd century, and made by the very talented Nodge Nolan. Available on Peronis site http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index ... snmlhncif7
Cheers
Caballo