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+--- Thread: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric (/showthread.php?tid=9576)
Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Chris B - 06-01-2007
Hopefully this is a question someone can answer. I have done a lot of research on the Greek swords used during various periods, but was hoping someone had an idea on how the baldric for the scabbard for a falcata would have been constructed. Specifically, was there a buckle on the baldric or was it simply a solid piece of leather wrapped around the body and attaching at two points on the scabbard. I know it is a small detail, but I am finishing my scabbard this weekend and want it as accurate as I can make it down to the last detal. Also, if there were buckles used, where would one find a buckle that would pass for late Greek (say 500 BC - 300 BC time range). I have looked at Quiet Press and various other suppliers, but haven't seen anything that I feel looks authentic enough for an early buckle. Even the Roman buckles appear to be from later finds. Thanks.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-01-2007
Hi.Unfortunately there are so many different depictions,in paintings in sculptures,frescoes and actual finds!One way is with four buckles through which the baldric is wraped.There are other depictions with only two backles from the same side where the baldric is tied.Some paintings show no backles at all but the baldric wraped in teo rows and crossed between them.Some times the backles seem nailed on the scabard while others(and there are similar finds from an Italic kopis I think) are kept in place with a bronze piece of metal wrapped arrownd the scabard.All these ways af attaching the baldric refer to leather or fabric construcrtion.There are clear depictions of ropes though either one or two.these ropes were just wrapped arrownd the scabard and were not secured with any backles.The baldrics that had no backles were secured on the scabard by the guard in the base of the scabard,that was extended,to fit the guard of the sword hilt.
Khaire
Giannis
If you need photos to understand what I'm refering to(either vases or sculptures),please ask
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Chris B - 06-01-2007
Thanks for the reply. If you have photos readily available, it would help, but I think I understand most of the methods described. The trick is to find buckles that are period appropriate. Thanks again.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-01-2007
I'll post photos soon,just to correct myself for some things,in some point in the previous post I was refering mostly to leaf shaped swords,but in many cases the same things aply to the kopis,too.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Thersites - 06-01-2007
A Falcata in Iberia could have a leather scabbard with or without guttering, i.e., iron strips with a 'u' section to both sides. If not, it had at least three iron pieces across the baldric to ensure strenght and also, sometimes, a piece for the knife. Also, a iron outh for the scabbard was mandatory.
The baldric was leather, and Iberian tombs show a bronze button that was porobably fixed to one of the open ends of the baldrid, while the other had a hole in it to 'button' and 'unbutton' the baldric.
The baldric was fixed to the scabbard by mobile iron rings.
Hope this is of some help.
Mere details in Fernando Quesada Sanz, El Armamento Iberico. Monogr. Instrumentum, 3, 1997. 2 vols. ISBN for volume I 2-907-303-09-0 Can be found at Oxbow. And in some University Libraires in the UK at least.
See also attached pictures
Best Regards
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Thersites - 06-01-2007
More details of sacabbard an a reconstrucion (too wide)
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Chris B - 06-01-2007
That helps A LOT. Thanks. I had not thought of using buttons to secure the two straps of the baldric. The idea behind the attachment looks kind of like a small frog (Just the circular piece) for a pugio on the Roman kits. I think I will just get a button (since plain buttons are a more neutral item across time) to secure the straps of the baldric. I have the scabbard construction and template I made similiar to what you show and am going to salvage the Bronze/Brass rings that came with the cheap scabbard and use them for the three rings on my project.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Thersites - 06-01-2007
I'm glad it helps. But please note these are archaeologically documented exampless from 4th-3rd c. BC Iberian falcatas, but that these methods of attachment do not necessarily apply to Late Classical or Hellenistic kopides. Same with the metal frame etc.
Best Regards
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Chris B - 06-01-2007
Yeah. I understand, but it helps to give a reference. I think I am going to make mine out of leather completely without any guttering. I'll use the three ring design, but without the metal piece at the mouth. I have a pretty good idea in my head of how I want it to look. I want to make it as plain as possible so that it has more flexibility of use with different kits and eras. Besides, I plan on buying a Xiphos with scabbard and Baldric from Manning soon. although I understand it will take roughly 2 years to receive. I just want to make the falcata basic (I do not intend for it to be my main sword for my Greek kit). I plan on getting my full kit from manning minus the shield (Corinthian Helm, Crest, Cuirass, Greaves, Xiphos, Spear Head) since I have already made multiple Greek shields that I am very happy with.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-01-2007
Hi.The photos I promised.Some of them show kopides and some the leaf shaped sword but as you see,both are depicted with mainly the same characteristics.Actually,many times we see the hoplite with a kopis in his hand and a xiphos scabard in his thigh!
Here are the ones with the kopis:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... u_gr/1.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... hector.jpg
And here the otherd with the xiphos:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... Munich.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... magegf.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... /arm10.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... anthes.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... oplite.jpg
And here one early sculpture with ropes.There are also late classical with even a single rope.
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... elph44.jpg
Here is an Iberian kopis:
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... ata_01.jpg
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Chris B - 06-01-2007
Thanks again for your help. I am working on it tomorrow morning. Now I have a good feel for what I want to do.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-05-2007
Yes,this is what most greek kopis scabards would look like.I'd also but a bronze edge in the lower end,but that's ok,too.The single baldric is not incorrect,my personal taste is the double one.Note the rings.Very correct,but he "forgot" to pass the baldric through the two of them,as shown in vases.
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 12-03-2007
In this thread above are some great examples of scabbards for the falcatta/kopis. My question is about the detail of the scabbard. It may only be speculation or strictly a matter of taste so please bear with me.
I notice in several pics the brass mouth of the scabbard seems to have a piece that sticks up about an inch on the handle side(that is, opposite the edge). This looks less so in the pottery pics. Would it be acceptable to make the mouth simpler, like that of a gladius, or is this upward projecting piece really necessary? Also would a brass chape be o.k.
I've made the scabbard and glued the leather covering on. Really, stressing on the details,though.
Thanks.
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Giannis K. Hoplite - 12-03-2007
If you find it very hard to make, you can skip it. It'll aslo be accurate. And of course brass(bronze) chapes are ok, but what sort of chape are you willing to make? There were small conical,pointed ones,but this was mostly late classical/hellenistic. Most of the classical ones seem to have been rectangular(like the two first links I posted above), or even a very simple thin piece that covers only the edge would be ok,too. In fact, i have seen very few fittings that can be identified as kopis scabard's, but we can speculate from the paintings...
Please post photos when you can!
Khaire
Giannis
Re: Falcata, Kopis, Etc. Baldric - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 12-04-2007
Thanks, Giannis. My intention was to make a fairly simple scabbard since I lack the skill necessary ,at this time, to make it fancier. So I'm glad to hear
it's o.k. with just a simple band at the throat. My scabbard is a little pointy
with a squared off point. I was hoping to make the chape conical with a flat bottom. I'll try to post pics when I'm done. I always think to make "in progress" pics about half way through.