Poor Visual Conditions in Battle

Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Printable Version

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Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - andersao - 05-23-2007

I was wondering if someone might be able to remind me of battles in which some or all of the fighting took place in the fog, heavy dust or dark. I'm looking for battles between 200 BCE and 200 CE.

So far I have the following:

Fog: Cynoscephelae, Magnesia
Dust: Vercellae
Dark: Bibracte, Alesia, 2nd Bedriacum

If you have the historical reference to any battles you might add to this list, it would be greatly appreciated, if not, not to worry Wink

Thanks

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Jona Lendering - 05-23-2007

Lake Trasimene (fog) and Cannae (dust) are too early, but maybe useful. According to Cassius Dio, there were heavy rains during the Teutoburg Forest massacre.

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Alexandr K - 05-24-2007

Hi,
at Carrhae the Parthians deliberately rode their horses around the Roman formation to make dust.
Greetings
Alexandr

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Jon Eaton - 05-24-2007

The second battle of Bedriacum in AD 69 took place mostly through the hours of darkness. It was between the Flavian forces under Antonius Primus and the Vitellians. Tacitus describes it in book III of his Histories.

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Jona Lendering - 05-24-2007

Quote:at Carrhae the Parthians deliberately rode their horses around the Roman formation to make dust.

Yes, that's what the sources state, but the strange thing is: Carrhae (modern Haran) is in a river valley. There's not much sand out there. Three centuries before Crassus, Alexander proceeded from Thapsacus to the Tigris via Haran, because that was where he could find water. I went there to see for myself, and I remain puzzled. Haran is not extremely rich of water, but I have the impression that the battle took place more to the south.

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Alexandr K - 05-24-2007

Hi Jona,
you're right. According to Regling, K.: Crassus' Partherkrieg, Klio 7, 1907, p. 359-397, the battlefield is probably some 30-35 km south from Carrhae (Haran). Its in a river valley, and there is even a lake nearly.

But probably you don't need very dry ground with sand to create dust with an army. At Pharsalus Pompey recognized that his troops are being enveloped by watching a cloud of dust, which the Caesarian soldiers made while advancing. And the battlefield of Pharsalus is near the Enipeus river. And there are numerous other instances where the cloud of dust revealed the movements of troops - often these are not in very dry climates or places... So I believe the Carrhae story doesn't have to be just some literary invention of ancient authors.

Greetings
Alexandr

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Roy - 05-24-2007

Quote:
Alexandr K:1ap0n4bl Wrote:at Carrhae the Parthians deliberately rode their horses around the Roman formation to make dust.
Yes, that's what the sources state, but the strange thing is: Carrhae (modern Haran) is in a river valley. There's not much sand out there. Three centuries before Crassus, Alexander proceeded from Thapsacus to the Tigris via Haran, because that was where he could find water. I went there to see for myself, and I remain puzzled. Haran is not extremely rich of water, but I have the impression that the battle took place more to the south.

Maybe it's just due to the general Roman view of the east?

I vaguely remember Tacitus claimed a battle in the Batavian rebellion took place in a mountain pass, though there are no mountains in that area. He probably wrote that due to the general Roman view of the 'barbarian' lands: mountains and forests.

Maybe something similar is the case here?

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Gaius_Calvus - 05-24-2007

Battle of the Colline Gate, November 82 BC.

This was the final battle of the Social Wars, and was fought all night long against the Samnites, who attacked Sulla's army encamped vicinity the Colline Gate outside Rome. Marcus Licinius Crassus won considerable fame in this fight by crushing the enemy on his wing.

Edge

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Jona Lendering - 05-24-2007

Quote:So I believe the Carrhae story doesn't have to be just some literary invention of ancient authors.

You are probably right. Gaugamela is another example.

Quote:I vaguely remember Tacitus claimed a battle in the Batavian rebellion took place in a mountain pass, though there are no mountains in that area. He probably wrote that due to the general Roman view of the 'barbarian' lands: mountains and forests.

) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) !:
Roy, you make my day! There are only two places where you can have read this: (a) in a book called De randen van de aarde. De Romeinen tussen Schelde en Eems, or on this webpage (or one of its clones). And guess who is the author? :wink:

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Nerva - 05-24-2007

Trust me lads, horses can kick up dust in a bog :wink:

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Roy - 05-24-2007

Quote:
Alexandr K:2gj5yrx4 Wrote:So I believe the Carrhae story doesn't have to be just some literary invention of ancient authors.
You are probably right. Gaugamela is another example.

Quote:I vaguely remember Tacitus claimed a battle in the Batavian rebellion took place in a mountain pass, though there are no mountains in that area. He probably wrote that due to the general Roman view of the 'barbarian' lands: mountains and forests.
) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) D ) !:
Roy, you make my day! There are only two places where you can have read this: (a) in a book called De randen van de aarde. De Romeinen tussen Schelde en Eems, or on this webpage (or one of its clones). And guess who is the author? :wink:

Never read that book, so I probably read it on your site then Smile

I remember reading it about a year ago or so. Don't remember whether I ever came across your site before I joined RAT.

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - andersao - 05-24-2007

Thanks for everyone's input so far Big Grin

Re: Poor Visual Conditions in Battle - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-24-2007

Hmmm, I know I have read that before, but I think it was in a book about the Varian disaster, the Battle that Stopped Rome! Not about the Bat avians, but the bit about the roman view of barbarian/Germanic lands mountains and dark forbidding forests!