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Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Printable Version

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Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 04-30-2007

Salve,

When I look at examples of Scutums on Trajan’s wall, all appear to be embossed… with raised thunderbolts, wreaths, and other décor. Also, the overwhelming vast majority are oval in shape.

[Image: shield_3_47_h499.jpg]

From my research it appears that shield shape change sometime after the rule of Trajan (98-117 AD) to the more rectangular style seen carried by most recreators but, did the embossing go away too? I see that most recreators paint the details on.

For my impression, I’m targeting late Republic to Early Empire so, I personally will make a shield that is more oval in shape with a circular boss (as seen on Trajan’s column) but, would panting thunderbolts be good enough or would I need to emboss them for my time period?

I was thinking about using wood for the embossing, covering it to with fabric, and attaching it to the shield because the embossing I see looks rather thick, much thicker than brass would have been… am I right or way off base here?

Also, many of the bosses I see are ornate… is this too over-the-top? Or since they are actual examples in museums would copying one or combining the aspects of one or more be a good idea for an officer’s impression?

[Image: shieldbossGuttmann%20Collection.jpg]

This is a later 2nd century example but ornate
[Image: shield%20boss%20pattern%20original.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 04-30-2007

Here are a few more examples from Trajan’s column including the only example I could find with a more rectangular shape
[Image: shield_1.jpg]

[Image: Shield_TC3_15_h499.jpg]

[Image: shield_TC4_14_h.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 04-30-2007

And a few more, all the examples appear to be embossed with patterns other than the thunderbolts… is there a reason (other than it’s really cool looking) that almost everyone in recreation uses the thunderbolts almost exclusively?
[Image: shield_TC3_59_h.jpg]

[Image: shield_TC2_59_h.jpg]

[Image: shield_TC3_42_h.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 04-30-2007

And a few more… should I emboss mine or is painting either good enough, accurate, or for my time period do I really need to emboss my Scutum?

[Image: shield_TC3_19_h.jpg]


A side note on this image... the Romans are not fighting bare handed, there were supposed to be drill holes and small swords inserted into their hands but... I guess they never got around to adding them.
[Image: shield_TC2_31_h.jpg]

[Image: shield_TC5_38_h.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Primvs Pavlvs - 04-30-2007

There is much debate as to what exactly is being shown here. Some say that the relief is built up with leather, or even gesso as some medieval examples. I do know that there has been finds of metal parts that are believed to have once been on shields such as stars, and lightning bolts.

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Tarbicus - 04-30-2007

Embossed, appliques or painted? Take your pick. Lots of cupric alloy appliques have been found apparently, though (gammas, crescents, stars, etc).

I don't think the subject's as contentious as tunic colours..... not quite.

Search on RAT, you'll find discussions from the past.

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Marcus Mummius - 04-30-2007

Holger Ratsdorf once told me that rawhide fragments were found in France. These fragments were shaped like elements we see on scuta (wings, tunderbolts). The rawhide fragments had stiching holes running around their edges.

I have no idea were these fragments were found, nor what they look like, nor what Ratsdorf's source is...

Vale,

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss ( - Matthew Amt - 04-30-2007

Quote:When I look at examples of Scutums on Trajan’s wall, all appear to be embossed… with raised thunderbolts, wreaths, and other décor. Also, the overwhelming vast majority are oval in shape.

The soldiers with oval shields are generally believed to be auxiliaries, not legionaries. The legionaries are shown with rectangular or curve-sided shields. Yes, there is a big question about the embossed designs on those shields--we don't know if the actual shields had raised emblems or not. Embossed metal parts have certainlly been found (crescents, lighting bolts, etc.). And applied leather or gesso could have been used. Most folks assume that regular paint was the typical method, though, as seen on all the shields from Dura Europas (often quite complex!).

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/scutum.html

Quote:From my research it appears that shield shape change sometime after the rule of Trajan (98-117 AD) to the more rectangular style seen carried by most recreators but, did the embossing go away too?

Um, are you talking about legionaries? Because the rectangular shield (or flat top and bottom with curved sides) seems to be the norm during the first and second centuries AD, giving way eventually to large oval or round shields. I think we'd all be interested in any hard evidence to the contrary!

Quote:For my impression, I’m targeting late Republic to Early Empire so, I personally will make a shield that is more oval in shape with a circular boss (as seen on Trajan’s column) but, would panting thunderbolts be good enough or would I need to emboss them for my time period?


This is a good shape for that general era:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/augscutum.jpg

Though most folks go with the older Republican style for Caesar's era:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/repscuta.jpg

Quote:I was thinking about using wood for the embossing, covering it to with fabric, and attaching it to the shield because the embossing I see looks rather thick, much thicker than brass would have been… am I right or way off base here?

I wouldn't use wood. You can use metal if it's thin sheet, embossed to shape. Here's one I did:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/Qscutum.jpg

Leather will do, too, either just painted or perhaps tooled and colored.

A fancy boss is fine, too. Plenty of plain ones are known, but the fancier ones get all the press! I expect many of our shields are too plain and simple, overall.

That help?

Matthew

questions about embosing scutm plats by hand - brennivs - tony drake - 04-30-2007

Antonivs I have a photocopy of a few pieces sent to me a few years ago from Germania these pieces were found together hope its some use Regards Brennivs Big Grin




[Image: shield1.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-02-2007

Interesting stuff gents....

Re: questions about embosing scutm plats by hand - Matt Lukes - 05-02-2007

Quote:Antonivs I have a photocopy of a few pieces sent to me a few years ago from Germania these pieces were found together hope its some use Regards Brennivs Big Grin

Very cool- there's lots of talk about metal applique pieces, but rarely can sources or, more importantly, images like this be provided. The only other picture I've seen was of similar lightning bolts, but they weren't shown with a scale, fragments of edge binding or anything else that would link them to a scutum- this set of artifacts is rather different.

The only issue I have with the idea that such decoration was widespread, other than the rarity of artifacts, is that the whole job of a shield is to absorb blows from rather nasty weapons- I can't see sheet copper alloy elements surviving well. Paint one can touch up or re-do fairly easily, but metal pieces could easily end up looking, well, like those in the photo after just a single engagement. Of course the same argument could be used against the binding, but that seems to have been not uncommon, so maybe damage wasn't such a serious issue afterall...

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Gaius Julius Caesar - 05-02-2007

Perhaps praetorian scuta?

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - AntonivsMarivsCongianocvs - 06-08-2007

In another post Sulla Felix said:
Quote:Just read this in the Ancient Warfare brochure:
"When these men are merely on the march, they do not put on gleaming armour, nor have their shields polished and helmets uncovered, as they have now taken the leather covers from their armour. No this splendour means they are going to fight, and are now advancing on their enemies"
Plutarch, Lucullus, 27.5
Interesting about the polished shields - I am just about to wax my scutum!

Polishing painted wood would not make much sense of course; at least not in the way I think the author means. What would make sense is polishing the brass trim and all the brass wings, lightening bolts, and boss on the shield.

As we see in sculpture, Republican era shields are seen without raised embossed details so, I would theorize those style shields were painted. It would be very un-Roman like to carry a plain shield into battle.

Very late Republican shields through mid Imperial shields (those most commonly used in recreation) all show raised embossed details in sculpture. Raised embossed details means, at least to me, theses shields had actual raised wings, lightening bolts, bosses, and other adornments… most likely brass, and most likely polished.

Note, the Duro Europas shield, and please correct me if I’m wrong, was from the 3rd Century AD. It is very possible that the shields we see on Trajan’s column were not painted, as the much later Duro Europas was, and instead had brass adornments & trim.

Roman Republican style Shields, most likely painted, without brass adornments 2nd to 1st C BC
[Image: Marineslegionarios.jpg]

Shield with raised details (Trajan's column) Emperor Trajan 98-117
[Image: shield_1.jpg]

3rd Century Duro Europas shield (recreation)
[Image: Duro_Europas.jpg]

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - sulla felix - 06-08-2007

I see what you mean Anthony, but surely the only way to depict scuta emblems on carvings is by rasing them or recessing them (assuming that the sculpture was not painted of course). It does not therefore necessarily follow that sculpture (particularly that on TC) indicates elements of the actual scuta emblems were applied metal or leather shapes.

BTW I think a waxed painted scutum that had been buffed and polished would be highly reflective in bright sunlight. Just imagine say 10,000 of them all reflecting sunlight!

Re: Questions about embossing a Scutum (shield) & boss (hand - Hibernicus - 06-08-2007

The techinque of raised elements of a sculpture are also duplicated in stucco or plaster work on walls of homes et al. It's a simple way to add depth to a painting.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-30 ... -sculpture
http://www.vroma.org/images/raia_images/stuccopanel.jpg
best:
http://www.ostia-antica.org/vmuseum/decor_4.htm

This is why I would not be quick to claim that raised relief on parts of sculpture or carved bas relief is evidence of the same on the actual item represented.