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Scythian-Greek scale armour - stevesarak - 03-28-2007
I can't post the link to the auction because of the rules but I thought you might want to see this anyway. I don't know if this will come out but here it is.
A Scythian-Greek scale armour,
Northern Region of the Black Sea, ca. end of 4th, beginning of 3rd century B.C. Fragments of a bronze scale armour. Copper plate lamellae forged in the shape of arrows, overlapping each other and fastened with long circular bent bronze pins with sharp points. Remnants of the leather backing on the inside, held by the same pins. There are two rows of flat, wavy, bronze scales in the lower part of the armor plates. Also several shoulder belt and leg fragments. Dimensions of the two large armour pieces 30 x 47 and 30 x 41 cm.
Of extreme rarity. Up to now, only small fragments of this type of armour have been known, mostly made of iron, only very rarely in bronze. Comparable bronze fragments have been found in the Scythian grave mounds (kurgans) of Kurdzips (northern Caucasus) and Mordvinovskiy kurgan near Cherson. Cf. L. Galanina, Kurdzipsky Kurgan, Leningrad. 1980. p. 99 fig. 71.
The contact sector between Greek and Scythian was located along the north coast of the Black Sea, where an independent cultural region arose, particularly in the eastern Crimea and the Taman Peninsula, the so-called Bosporian Empire, which was neither really Greek nor purely Scythian. Pantikapaion on the Crimea, today's Kertch, and Phanagoria on the Taman Peninsula were Greek colonies, which developed an independent culture on the edge of the Greek world from this stressful contact with the Scythians.
To our knowledge, even if in pieces, this is the only existing Scythian-Greek armour from the period of the 4th, 3rd century B.C.
Together with an expertise by Dr. M.B. Gorelik, member of the Institute of Oriental Studies in the Russian Academy of Sciences, Moskau. The expertise includes detailed illustrations for this scale armour.
Starting price 30000 Euros
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - hoplite14gr - 03-29-2007
Hoplites of the northens most colnies could have many skythian items in theit attire and weapons.
Kind regards
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - Dan Howard - 03-30-2007
Interesting example. Any ideas why the bottom scales are not embossed with a medial ridge?
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - MeinPanzer - 03-30-2007
There is absolutely nothing Greek about this item, simply Scythian. There is no evidence that I know of that Greek soldiers from the Bosporan wore this kind of armour, especially since Greeks were not often interred in kurgan graves. This is still a very nice piece- I've never seen armour like this with scales shaped like arrowheads.
Quote:Interesting example. Any ideas why the bottom scales are not embossed with a medial ridge?
The bottom scales are part of an attached girdle composed of iron strips. These are fairly commonly found with other forms of Scythian armour.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - Sean Manning - 03-30-2007
Interesting. Thanks for posting it. Where did you get the image, Steve?
I'm interested in armour of the period for my Achaemenid research. Near Eastern armour scales of the period usually had flat or rounded bottoms, and I've never seen metal wire used to link the scales before Roman armour. The surviving leather backing is also interesting.
They mention "shoulder belts" so perhaps they think it had the linothorax cut? That could be a Greek connection.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - MeinPanzer - 03-30-2007
Quote:Interesting. Thanks for posting it. Where did you get the image, Steve?
I'm interested in armour of the period for my Achaemenid research. Near Eastern armour scales of the period usually had flat or rounded bottoms, and I've never seen metal wire used to link the scales before Roman armour. The surviving leather backing is also interesting.
They mention "shoulder belts" so perhaps they think it had the linothorax cut? That could be a Greek connection.
Several other Scythian armour finds have included the original leather backings, some of them very complete and even including the leather fasteners for each scale or strip of lamellar.
Scythians had been wearing Greek style armour since about the 5th century. Have a look at the Solokha comb to see a composite linothorax and a scale cuirass cut in the Greek style worn by Scythians. They had a taste for Greek armour, but this in no way indicates that this was worn by a Greek.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - stevesarak - 03-30-2007
Quote:Interesting. Thanks for posting it. Where did you get the image, Steve?
P.M. Sent
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - Arthes - 03-30-2007
Ooh, very nice.....!
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - Sean Manning - 03-31-2007
Quote:Several other Scythian armour finds have included the original leather backings, some of them very complete and even including the leather fasteners for each scale or strip of lamellar.Can you recommend any good sources? I've looked at Scythians and Greeks in South Russia but that is rather old and listed no really good finds.
Quote:Scythians had been wearing Greek style armour since about the 5th century. Have a look at the Solokha comb to see a composite linothorax and a scale cuirass cut in the Greek style worn by Scythians. They had a taste for Greek armour, but this in no way indicates that this was worn by a Greek.I'm not disputing that the last owner was probably an ethnic Scythian, and until I re-read the original article didn't have the impression its authors were suggesting that he was ethnically Greek. The armour was buried in a kurgan and has the scythian-style girdle plates, after all (although we, unlike the discoverers, don't know what else was found in the tomb, so perhaps they have other evidence for the last wearer's culture). I've seen the Solokha comb online, but thanks for reminding me of it.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - T. Finkas - 03-31-2007
Quote:Interesting example. Any ideas why the bottom scales are not embossed with a medial ridge?
The long horizontal "trough" a few scales up from the bottom is probably to allow for the wide scaled warbelt to be worn over top---a Scythian fashion. This may explain the difference in the scales.
Tim
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - MeinPanzer - 03-31-2007
Quote:MeinPanzer:ezr1wudo Wrote:Several other Scythian armour finds have included the original leather backings, some of them very complete and even including the leather fasteners for each scale or strip of lamellar.Can you recommend any good sources? I've looked at Scythians and Greeks in South Russia but that is rather old and listed no really good finds.
Unfortunately, I've been on a Scythian weapons-and-armour bent for some time, but items are hard to find. 90%+ of this stuff was found before the fall of the Soviet Union and so is written up in Russian. I managed to find one superb article on the Sarmatians, in German, from the journal Eurasia, IIRC, that pretty much summed up the entirety of the weapons and armour finds from Sarmatian and late Scythian graves, featuring line drawings of many. That, so far, has been my best single source, but it won't be easy to find (I got it through interlibrary loan).
Quote:I'm not disputing that the last owner was probably an ethnic Scythian, and until I re-read the original article didn't have the impression its authors were suggesting that he was ethnically Greek
I took this to be the OP's opinion considering that this is posted in the Greek forum.
Quote:The armour was buried in a kurgan and has the scythian-style girdle plates, after all (although we, unlike the discoverers, don't know what else was found in the tomb, so perhaps they have other evidence for the last wearer's culture). I've seen the Solokha comb online, but thanks for reminding me of it.
I could send you some good quality pictures, if you'd like. Just PM me.
P.S. Where are you located in BC? I'm in Victoria.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - hoplite14gr - 03-31-2007
Non can be sure unless the item was find in a grave of a Skythian or the grave of a Greek. Considering that 4-centry hoplites with thracik or phrugic helms are based on a few stele in the National Museum in Athens that means that Greeks adopted foreign fashions.
A Greek northern colonist might well have aquired Skythian items both from trade or from a successful battle as loot. This option cannot ruled out.
Kind regards
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - MeinPanzer - 04-01-2007
Quote:Non can be sure unless the item was find in a grave of a Skythian or the grave of a Greek. Considering that 4-centry hoplites with thracik or phrugic helms are based on a few stele in the National Museum in Athens that means that Greeks adopted foreign fashions.
I don't doubt this...
Quote:A Greek northern colonist might well have aquired Skythian items both from trade or from a successful battle as loot. This option cannot ruled out.
Kind regards
...However, we have no clear evidence for it. Graves found in and around the Bosporan kingdom can often be identified as either Greek or Scythian fairly clearly, and I do not know of a single Greek grave that includes such armour. However, I do know of numerous representations of Bosporan Greeks wearing the linothorax and muscled cuirass, as one would expect.
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - hoplite14gr - 04-01-2007
Most colonies had unwilling citizens and hired mainland Greeks to fight.
So the fashions would be basically Greek.
But as I posted before-if it comes from a Skythian grave, it was owned by a Skythian. If not it could be owned by anyone and hoplites with "foreign" items would be an odity even in the colonial military formation.
Kind regards
Re: Scythian-Greek scale armour - Giannis K. Hoplite - 04-01-2007
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... s_2_AC.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o118 ... 6thBCE.jpg
The first link shows a Skythian with scale armour(in the middle)that looks like a combination of greek and skythian armour.The other is skythian leather scale armour.Sorry,sourse unknown.