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+--- Thread: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time (/showthread.php?tid=8289)
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Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - L C Cinna - 02-03-2007
Hi!
I started a thread about the Soldiers on the Arch of Severus some months ago but wasn't able to scan the image I had in a book which showed a drawing of the relief which is badly damaged nowadays. Anyway now I managed to scan it somewhere and post it here so we can have a little discussion. What I find very interesting is the distribution of armour and shields as well as the variety of swords on the left or right side.
The most interesting part imho is the depiction of legionaries in segmentata with oval shields, some with hamata with rectangular shields and some auxiliaries with oval or hexagonal shields.
I don't really know what to take out of this. Is it a great example for (although still stylized) the change of equipment during this period, or was the intention to show legionaries equipped for different purposes, or maybe the artist wanted to make a difference between Septimius Danubian legions which due to the different situations of combat at the danube and limes frontiers had already started to change to longer swords and oval scuta while his eastern legions were still using the rectangular, or do we see the soldiers of the "old" legions compared with soldiers of Severus newly raised and equipped legions?
what do you think?
Left side of the Arch of Severus
sorry for the bad quality of the image. I don't really know how to cut out the picture from the text and keep it in good quality somehow. If anyone can help I'd be grateful.
Oh and sorry for starting a new thread but the old one went off topic as I didn't have the picture so I thought I'd start a fresh one.
thank you.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Tarbicus - 02-03-2007
Great scan, thanks. Laudes.
A great quantity of Hellenistic helmets with segmentata there :?
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Magnus - 02-03-2007
It shows quite a few legionarys with the round clippeus sheild. How come?
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - L C Cinna - 02-03-2007
hmmm my guess is that it's simply the strong hellenistic influence in arts. I think the intention was to depict oval scuta. Same for the helmets.
or...and now the weird theory...what if the guys with the small round shields are centuriones in combat? I mean there are no crests on the picture but same goes for Traian's column. I was always wondering why on all of those monuments you can clearly see legionaries, auxiliaries, signiferi, tribunes a.s.o. but not a single centurio. They get praised in literature so often, they are the thing that keeps the army working, they are the real professionals, they earn a hell lot of money but they are NOT depicted on official monuments showing the army on campaign?
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - caiusbeerquitius - 02-03-2007
I´d rather say that during the second century the clipeus came more and more into use and the rectangular scutum was used less and less. (assuming the clipeus was not used all the time next to the rectangular shields) Look at the Column of Marcus Aurelius, and think of the ratio of oval vs. rectangular among the Dura shields (later, I know, but nonetheless).
www.alte-geschichte.uni-siegen.de/Rombilder/marcussaeule.htm
Also, the oval shields in the scan all have shield bosses, which goes against the theory of a "hellenized" picture.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Ildar - 02-03-2007
Outlines of the reliefs from Filippo Coarelli. Roma. Guide Archeologiche. Mondadori Electa S.p.A. 2004, pp. 78-79
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - MD - 02-03-2007
The tombstones of lancearii also show them equipped with round shields, for example the pictures of tombstones of Aurelius Sabius, Aurelius Mucianus or Titus Flavius Seutes are available hear in the imagebase.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Spiridonov Alexander - 02-03-2007
Quote:Outlines of the reliefs from Filippo Coarelli. Roma. Guide Archeologiche. Mondadori Electa S.p.A. 2004, pp. 78-79Ильдар, спасибо за ссылку.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - L C Cinna - 02-03-2007
I know that the oval slowly replaced the rectangular. What is interesting is the distribution on the monument.
and about hellenized. Roman art is heavily hellenized. Just look at the helmets, same goes for several other depictions of Roman soldiers.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - caiusbeerquitius - 02-03-2007
Quote:and about hellenized. Roman art is heavily hellenized. Just look at the helmets, same goes for several other depictions of Roman soldiers.Well, I know that. I was referring specifically to your argument:
Quote:hmmm my guess is that it's simply the strong hellenistic influence in arts.in answer to the question
Quote:It shows quite a few legionarys with the round clippeus sheild. How come?
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Ildar - 02-03-2007
Quote:Ильдар, спасибо за ссылку.
Not at all! But this is the English-speaking forum.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - L C Cinna - 02-03-2007
yes sorry. i meant the way the grips of the shields are depicted looks typically hellenistic to me. specially when you look at the other pics posted by Ildar.
this one for example
you see the auxiliaries on the lower left, carrying typical oval scuta but with hellenistic handgrips.
oh and btw laudes for the link ildar. thank you very much
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - caiusbeerquitius - 02-04-2007
Yup, the handgrips, that is right. However, in Dura some shields were found which might have had such handgrips. Unfortunately they exist no longer.
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - Spiridonov Alexander - 02-04-2007
Quote:Spiridonov Alexander:1qbdsvcp Wrote:Ильдар, спасибо за ссылку.
Not at all! But this is the English-speaking forum.
Excuse me. :oops:
Re: Soldiers on Arch of Septimius Pt.2 with scans this time - drsrob - 02-04-2007
Quote:I´d rather say that during the second century the clipeus came more and more into use and the rectangular scutum was used less and less. [...]AFAIK clipeus is the word the Romans used to describe the hoplite shield (aspis in Greek). The oval shield was called scutum, just like the rectangular one.