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+--- Thread: Sword, I century AD (/showthread.php?tid=7812)
Re: Sword, I century AD - Gaius Julius Caesar - 12-20-2006
Did you mean the museum will be in Libia, it was found in Libya, or what Aitor? If I get the job I am hoping for, I will be working in Libya next year, so would be interesting to get to a museum there, if time allows.
Regards
Re: Sword, I century AD - Tarbicus - 12-20-2006
That there definitely looks like a classic hispaniensis. Where's Peter Connolly when you really need him?
Re: Sword, I century AD - Mitra - 12-20-2006
Hi Bruno
Happy to view you have followed my advice to going on RAT.
105 cm is very long, how much is long only the blade? I remember (i dont have the book before me in this moment) the founded hispaniensis dont have this dimension.
A cavalry sword based on infantry model?
I think Bruno have the necessity only of a normal bibliography on roman war equipment like Bishop's and Feugere's books.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Thersites - 12-20-2006
If your work is in the Dakhla Project (nice place, by the way), it is possible that it might be earlier than 1st AD. If it is in Fayum (where I excavated in the eighties!) , also possible. But that pommel could be also early imperial.
Mmm... a typical Republican hispaniensis would be in the range aof 60-70 cm. blade, plus tang and pommel, let's say around 75-85 cm.
Trilobate pommel is also quite typical of republican examples dated to the 2nd-1st centuries BC
An 'hellenistic' era example of [i]Hispaniensis has been published by Guy Stiebel from Jerico.
Hve a look at:
STIEBEL, G.D. (2004) "A Hellenistic gladius from Jericho". E. Netzer, Hasmonean and Herodian palaces at Jericho. Final Reports 1973-1987, vol, II, pp 229-232. Jerusalem.
For the earliest prototypes and evolution:
QUESADA SANZ, F. (1997) "Gladius hispaniensis: an archaeological view from Iberia". M. Feugère (ed.) L'équipement militaire et l'armement de la République. Journal or Roman Military Equipment Studies 8, pp. 251-270.
And (see also tables there)
http://www.celtiberia.net/articulo.asp? ... spaniensis
with:
In general:
CONNOLLY, P. (1997) "Pilum, gladius and Pugio in the Late Republic". M. Feugère (ed.) L'équipement militaire et l'armement de la République. Journal or Roman Military Equipment Studies 8, pp. 41-57
Also there paper by J. Horvat.
Also
ISTENIC, J. (2000) “A late-republican gladius from the river Ljubljanica (Slovenia)".
JRMES Journal or Roman Military Equipment Studies 11, pp. 1-9
See also next post for the pommel
Best Regards
[/i]
Re: Sword, I century AD - aitor iriarte - 12-20-2006
Libya was just a wild guess, Byron. I don't really know more than you do... :wink:
Aitor
Re: Sword, I century AD - Thersites - 12-20-2006
See this from Osuna (Seville), 2nd c. BC. Now in Paris
Re: Sword, I century AD - Conal - 12-20-2006
This fits in well with the developement of the Hispaniensis via a Celt-Iberian version of the Celtic sword as the Tri-Lobate pommel and hilt guard was a feature of Celtic swords.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Tarbicus - 12-20-2006
Quote:This fits in well with the developement of the Hispaniensis via a Celt-Iberian version of the Celtic sword as the Tri-Lobate pommel and hilt guard was a feature of Celtic swords.
Good point. It's like the top of the Celtic anthropomorphic style.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Thersites - 12-20-2006
Mmm... not really IMHO. Parallel developments. Celtiberian trilobate pommels are separate in the evolutive line. But yes, even Peter agreed with my view that GladHisp is a Celtiberian version of the LT I sword imported in Iberia in the 4th c BC and modified there during the 3rd and 2nd while the Gauls followed a different evolutive pattern in their swords(see references above)
Re: Sword, I century AD - Tarbicus - 12-20-2006
Mmm... three sticky-out bits seem suspiciously similar to me (head and arms; one version with the arms spread, the other with them folded up). :wink: But I'll defer to your knowledge.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Thersites - 12-20-2006
Yes, indeed you're completely right they are similar in conception. In fact they respond to the same sort of anthropomorfization of the hilt.
My point was (or intended to be, I hurried too much) that there is not a DIRECT link between Celtic anthropomorphic hilts and Celtiberian trilobate hilts. My opinion is that they respond to a parallel development (more than a bit later in Iberia).
Re: Sword, I century AD - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 12-20-2006
At the Osuna's relief seems the guard have two pommels, too.
If the blades are 70-75 cm long, to be the whole sword 105 cm the hilting part must have been almost 30 cm long. It's not a exageration:
Trilobate pommel: 10-12 cms. with a pommel diameter of circa 6 cm.
Hilt: 10 cms (a range tipical in imperial swords)
Guard: 5-10 cm.
So, in my opinion, that sword could be a hispaniensis.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Bruno Bazzani - 12-20-2006
I made a mistake: overall length is 101 cm.
And yes, it has been found in the Fayyum (Egypt), last month, by the Lecce University archaeological mission.
It may take a very long time to see it in a museum, since this depends on local authorities decision.
However, before it can be exhibited, it must be restored: if you know any _generous_ fan of the roman army they are always in search for private sponsors :wink:
Many thanks for the bibliographical suggestions.
Re: Sword, I century AD - Bruno Bazzani - 12-20-2006
Blade length is about 83 cm
Re: Sword, I century AD - Thersites - 12-21-2006
Well, when (if) you can post more detailed info wel'll perhaps be able to provide more details and references.
BTW, where are you digging now? I used to work at Ehnasya el-Medina (Heracleopolis Magna) close to Bani Suef, many many years ago... :?
And give my best regards to Gianluca Tagliamonte at Lecce!