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Josephus - hand signals - Tarbicus - 11-17-2006
Flavius Josephus, War of the Jews, Bk VI, Ch IV, Sn 6
"Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. But they did not hear what he said, though he spake so loud, having their ears already dimmed by a greater noise another way; nor did they attend to the signal he made with his hand neither, as still some of them were distracted with fighting, and others with passion."
[url:1235be2q]http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm[/url]
"Caesar shouted and waved to the combatants...and his gesticulations went unheeded..."
Williams' translation
Any thoughts?
Battle commands/signals, or waving like a madman for the men to stop?
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Narukami - 11-17-2006
Interesting observation Tarbicus.
Hand & Arm Signals...why not?
Good basic infantry skill that has been around in one form or another for a long time now.
If this is the only reference to it then I might be inclined to think it was "wild gesticulation." On the other hand, if there are other references to the use of hand & arm signals that would seem to make the case.
So the real question is: Are there other references and how many?
Again, good observation.
Narukami
Re: Josephus - hand signals - M. Demetrius - 11-17-2006
They must have been busy, then. Too bad he didn't have a whistle, then he could have signalled!
(M. Demetrius ducks behind scutum, peering warily over the top for the incoming barrage)
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Matt Lukes - 11-17-2006
I've heard criticisms of "Saving Private Ryan" that they used hand signals a lot and US WWII vets said no such thing was done- these didn't arise as standard practice until the Vietnam war. I do know the Scharfschützen (snipers) of the Wehrmacht did have a simple hand signal system during WWII, but they were very much specialists... and prior to that?
It's an interesting idea Jim, but I'm more inclined to beleive Caesar was just waving and trying to get them to understand what he meant- if it were a real signal, they'd have known what he meant, right? I wouldn't doubt that there were at times signals like raising/ dropping a sword or vitris (or whatever), but a more complex system seems unlikely to me...
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Tarbicus - 11-17-2006
Quote:if it were a real signal, they'd have known what he meant, right?Matt, you're forgetting Travis' whole thread on Titus and his attempts to stop the destruction of the Temple. Josephus might be lying and claiming the men ignored him to make good propoganda for Titius.So, what if Titus didn't try to stop the men in the first place? It still doesn't negate the concept of hand signals, but the important question is which translation would you go for as they each suggest something different? The first opens the possibility, but I think the Williams version doesn't at all.
Does anyone have knowledge of the Greek version?
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Matthew Amt - 11-17-2006
I believe Maurice's Strategikon states that soldiers should be trained to respond to visual signals and horn calls as well as voice commands, because of the noise of battle. (Funny, he doesn't mention whistles!) At least, I *think* it's in Maurice, not in Vegetius...
Valete,
Matthew
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Robert Vermaat - 11-17-2006
Quote:I believe Maurice's Strategikon states that soldiers should be trained to respond to visual signals and horn calls as well as voice commands, because of the noise of battle. (Funny, he doesn't mention whistles!) At least, I *think* it's in Maurice, not in Vegetius...Yes Martt, you are right. Is was reading it yesterday, would you believe it!
Maurikios: Strategikon III.5:
Quote:If he want it [the tagma] to stop, he shouts the command "Sta" or he gives the signal by banging a shield, by a hand motion, or by trumpet. And so the tagma halts.
Re: Josephus - hand signals - D B Campbell - 11-17-2006
Quote:Does anyone have knowledge of the Greek version?
The Greek simply says:
"Caesar, by [the sound of his] voice (phônêi) and by [waving his] right hand (dexiai), kept on indicating to the combatants to quench the fire, ..."
Williamson's Penguin translation is more faithful to the Greek. Whiston was obviously trying to "add value" to his translation. (I much prefer Whiston!
)
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Muzzaguchi - 11-17-2006
I would imagine that the complexity and frequency of other signalling systems would mean that centurions at least would be able to recognise hand, horn or flag signals.
These might be agreed upon for the day of battle to avoid jamming (there is a refernece to fire signal jamming - in Thucydides I think)
Cheers
Murray
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Tarbicus - 11-18-2006
So, after Rob's post we have a definite example of a hand motion being a signal in battle.
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Matt Lukes - 11-18-2006
But the question isn't whether there were ANY hand signals, but whether Caesar's motion to quench the fire was, yes? "Quench the Fire" doesn't seem to me to be a kind of hand signal that would be among the probably few that might have been used- the one Robert's reference mentions is 'HALT'- definitely a practical signal. Or am I completely missing what you were getting at Jim? I'm not familiar with the context of the quote- was fire part of a mission or plan? If so, and putting it out at some point was important, then sure coming up with a signal for that makes sense, but otherwise?
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Tarbicus - 11-18-2006
I think it all comes down to how the original is translated. Duncan's translation of the greek does seem to say (to me) that Titus was waving at the men to get their attention and probably pointing at the fire to tell them to put it out. But I'm having a hard time trying to visualise how you would be specific about that. Sure, you can point at one frantically and wave your hand like a nutcase, but what motion would you use to indicate to someone they need to quench a fire? I honestly can't think of one :? Titus must have been simply pointing at the fire and screaming, "Put it out!" at the the top of his voice.
I don't see why we have to stick to just the Temple incident, though. If any other references to hand signals crop up then that should also be discussed, shouldn't it?
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Matt Lukes - 11-18-2006
Makes sense to me- you've got to be pretty good at charades to be able to do 'put the fire OUT'
ESPECIALLY if you're trying to get guys who are fighting and looting to understand.In general, it seems perfectly reasonable that some forms of hand or hand-held signals would have been used. Hollywood seems to like fire signals- arrows or even just torches, but just raising an arm to say 'go!' or making a sweeping motion to indicate 'flank left' is nice simple and clear. My earlier comment was meant with respect to a complex system which would be less likely for ancient battles I would think.
Re: Josephus - hand signals - Tarbicus - 11-18-2006
Quote:My earlier comment was meant with respect to a complex system which would be less likely for ancient battles I would think.Never say "never". :wink:
Re: Josephus - hand signals - M. Demetrius - 11-18-2006
Quote:Never say "never".I never do. Heh.
I rather suspect there must have been some hand signals. I can't remember where, but I remember some kind of flag signals to send simple messages between watchtowers, but the old brain doesn't keep everything sorted out like it used to. If that's true, a simple switch to the signum would keep the same signals for the troops.
I'm sure "halt" and "forward" would be used, and "go left", "go right", but how complicated can it be when you're possibly viewing the signal from the end of the column, maybe a quarter mile away? They'd have to be relayed, as it's certain a column of marching men would not all have their eyes riveted on one person way down the trail.... Over the hill.... Through the trees....
And in battle, I still don't understand how you could get your concentration off the guy with the long pointy thing trying to stick a hole in you to keep checking for signals. You'd have to be alerted from behind. Morse code on the top of the helmet would work, but wasn't invented yet.
