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Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Tarbicus - 10-27-2006
Considering that ancient Roman soldiers drilled and trained using double weight scuta pretty much every day feasibly, but modern re-enactors can't do that (it's unreasonable and impractical for them to do so), what's the opinion on re-enactors using half-weight (or thereabouts) scuta for combat re-enactment? It's been on my mind for a while, and the thing is that we know the scutum is referred to by primary sources as a weapon, not just a defensive tool. If half-weight were used in combat experimentation then surely you would get a much more bona fide result that could shed more light on how they were actually used?
Reconstruction is a different matter altogether, I'm not saying that should be different.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Iosephus - 10-27-2006
Good idea but first I think we should define what we can consider as "proper" weight of a scutum (if we would like to halve it), because it seems there is still some confusion about this.
I mean this thread:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11594
20 pound dead weight - richsc - 10-29-2006
Yes, I seriously doubt a 20 pound scutum could be used for anything other than a dead weight. The muscles in the upper shoulder are some of the hardest to develop in the body, and the quickest to tire. The scutum we use in Legio XX are usable as weapons, rather like brass knuckles, but even then you tire quickly trying to punch with them for several minutes.
And a 20 pound scutum could not moved or twisted much either if a sword was caught in it, as the mass is just so much more; quick movements would be out.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Tarbicus - 10-29-2006
One of the great things about, e.g., the Dura report is that there is a wide variety of construction methods. Matt Lukes, Hibernicus, Christian and others seem to be leading the way on this (apologies to any I missed, I'm sure there are some), so if their scuta were weighed and alternative suitable materials used instead to bring the weight to roughly half, that might work at least until firm data is secured. Perhaps aluminium for this sole purpose, or fibreglass even, covered and edged with a foam material for safer and more aggressive offensive use (thinking needlefelt swords here)? Anything that could give a large number of re-enactors the stamina and mobility of a real Roman, who I also imagine had highly developed muscles after all that training.
I say half weight, but two-thirds may be more applicable; I don't know, I'm just fielding the question.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Hibernicus - 10-29-2006
And a 20 pound scutum could not moved or twisted much either if a sword was caught in it, as the mass is just so much more; quick movements would be out.
_________________
Richard Campbell
I disagree. I used to fight with a 20lb scutum, SCA, I had no problem moving where and when I needed it. Practice, strength, practice...
An anecdote: For most of my life I have experienced back "injuries" explained as pulled muscles, sprains, pinched nerves etc etc etc... Several years ago I experienced a series of back "injuries" over a short period of time that gave the doctors cause to cat-scan my back. A birth defect was discovered.
This got me into physical therapy. Docs stating that I had to strengthen my back and stomach muscles.. Physical therapist examines my back and expresses amazement.. muscle beds are deep and thick... so they do this examine with a grid to see how crooked my spine might be.. more expressions of astonishment... "Mr Richards the whole upper quardant of your left side is significantly larger than your right side and your right arm is nearly 1.5" longer than your left!" Delts, lats, bicep traps.. all larger.
If I could do this playing at soldiering, practicing for a few hours twice a week, imagine the possibilities of a professional Roman miles!!
A 20 lb scutum is easy!
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Tarbicus - 10-29-2006
Quote:I used to fight with a 20lb scutum, SCA, I had no problem moving where and when I needed it. Practice, strength, practice...Then that just means a real Roman soldier was even way more manouvreable with his use of the scutum than many think, yes? I'm saying we can't get a real idea of how the scutum was actually used unless we emulate the comparative weight of one when used in trying to figure out how they would have fought with it.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Matt Lukes - 10-29-2006
This does put some doubt on the suggestion that legionaries practiced with wicker scuta that were twice the weight of the real thing- 1) how the HELL do you make a wicker shield that weights 40lbs, and 2) how do you possibly fight with that? :lol:
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Peroni - 10-29-2006
Quote:how the HELL do you make a wicker shield that weights 40lbs
Wicker shields can be made much heavier by applying thick hide to front and/or the rear face, just tacked on.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Poftim - 10-29-2006
Sounds like you all need more endurance in the shoulder area.
No offense to Hibernicus, but he doesn't look like a spring chicken and if he doesn't have problems with it, niether should you younger guys.
By the way, if you all aren't doing it, some pushups and pullups would really help. I know a technique to improve endurance by a lot in a short amount of time (like 2 months short) and it's easy to do if anyone is interested.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 10-30-2006
Quote:I know a technique to improve endurance by a lot in a short amount of time (like 2 months short) and it's easy to do if anyone is interested.
I am.
By the way - 40lb is quite a weight. Try a barbell or something like that and see, how long you can dance around with that thing.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Tarbicus - 10-30-2006
The reconstructed scutum made by Peter Connolly weighed 9kg, which is pretty much 20 lbs as well. Possibly, if thinner at the edges, that might take the weight down to 17 or 18 lbs?
hock: Poftim, can I have your technique please?
Quote:if he doesn't have problems with it, niether should you younger guys.But that's not the point. If the legionaries did practice with 30 or 40 lb scuta, that has significant implications for the scuta as an offensive weapon if it only felt like 10 lbs to a legionary. It's not about us being able to wield a scutum in an acceptable way, it's about what we can do with the scuta in a more authentic way. What we may perceive as good use of it would probably look pathetically wimpy to a Roman, and the results of a re-enactment combat to test how the Romans would have done something (experimental archaeology) might be deeply flawed.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Poftim - 10-30-2006
I do this every weekday just about and in the last 4 months I've gotten a lot bigger and a lot more endurance in my arms:
First thing you're going to need is a pull-up bar
The excercise is:
5 pull-ups
10 push-ups
4 pull-ups
10 push-ups
3 pull-ups
10 push-ups
2 pull-ups
10 push-ups
1 pull-up
10 push-ups
If you do this and it's too easy, then do one set and wait 5 minutes and then do it again. If it's too hard, then take a 5-10 second breather between the pull-ups (i.e. do 5 pull-ups then 10 push-ups and take a second before you do the 4 pull-ups)
Also, palms facing you or palms facing away from you doesn't make too big of a difference as far as muscle development and palms facing you is easier.
The Marines would make us do this at their program to get people in shape before they shipped you to Boot Camp.
Good luck, if you need any help (or motivation, GUH!) then pm me and I'll try to help you out.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - M. CVRIVS ALEXANDER - 10-30-2006
Just did the exercise. The last set of push-ups was kinda hard, but overall - very doable. Fill good about myself!
Thanks!
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - Poftim - 10-30-2006
Sure thing! It always feel good when you do excercise!
For hefting a shield, grip might help too, if you want to get a better grip, I suggest getting one of these:
![[Image: springgrippers.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Beefypeanut/springgrippers.jpg)
You can get them at sporting goods stores. I usually do them during commercials when I watch TV. I do 10 on each hand every commercial.
I think that the different grips that require different pounds to close them have different colored grips. Mine are green if that's any help.
Good luck with getting stronger and getting more endurance! Once I started it became a passion.
Re: Scuta weight in re-enactment combat - caiusbeerquitius - 10-30-2006
As for shield weight: Connolly´s reconstruction of the Kasr El-Harit shield weighs around 10 kg. Cutting off a third would result in a rectangular imperial scutum. With thinned out edges you could get it down to some 5-6 kg, and if constructed well and correctly it still would be extremely stable and durable. So a double weight sctum would in that case be 12 kg. The Oval shields from Dura are similarly light in full reconstruction. It is mainly the layered / composite construction which is their strength.