What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Printable Version +- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat) +-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Thread: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? (/showthread.php?tid=7229) Pages:
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What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-26-2006 Hi, This picture was taken from another thread. I’m assuming the arrow is pointing to a grip. Does anyone know what is wrapping around the feathers, a snake? And what did the pommel look like? A serpent or possibly an eagle, or possible both, the snake's head facing one direction and the eagle's the other, forming the pommel. Does anyone know of others like this? That would have definitely been a magnificent sword, I wonder what the rest of it looked like? I can understand the eagle, but if that's a snake, what significance did a snake have to a Roman and who do you think that is a face of? Question, question, question. Thanks Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Matt Lukes - 10-28-2006 That's an odd piece to be sure. It certainly appears to be a snake encircling the feathers, but atop a head? And it's REALLY long for a handle... Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Peroni - 10-28-2006 I agree with Matt, it seems to be a snake. But are they feathers? They could possibly represent leaves. Like a depiction of the serpent in the apple tree in the garden of Eden???? :? It is much longer than the other 'grips' in the photo. It may not be a sword grip. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-28-2006 If the reference is biblical, perhaps the date of the piece may help. Too young, and we can rule out Eden. Any info on that, Steve? The object is quite long for a grip, and could be of ivory, as far as I can tell. It may be part of a staff ?? If it's solid, this would rule out a swordgrip, imo. which thread is it from? Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - A_Volpe - 10-29-2006 could it be a Medusa/Gorgon sort of image? The "feathers" going vertically may represent scales of a (large) snake motif...? Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006 Thanks for the input. I tried to find the thread it was from, I thought it was from RAT, from within the last two weeks, but I can’t find it. It may be from somewhere else. After reading everyone’s post, I have to agree that it looks to long for a grip. I don’t know how I didn’t catch it myself, I just assumed that since it was sitting within other grips that it must have been one also, I’m glad everyone else didn’t temporally go brain dead as well. I’m guessing that the picture is from a museum, so dating the sword, would help to determine the time frame. It looks like a spatha, but possibly on the short side, which makes it earlier the later, so I’m guessing too early for Eden. I’m also assuming that it was found with the other Roman artifacts in the picture, which more likely then not, makes it Roman. I agree about it being made of ivory. If you click on the picture to makes it lager, looking at it closer, it definitely has characteristics of old ivory. So, all we can do is speculate on what it might be. It those are feather then ok, does anyone know of any reference to snakes and eagles. Did Rome, (Eagle) defeat or have an ally that was represented as a snake? If those are leaves, then the snake must be wrapped around a tree or bush. Did Rome leave any references to snake as some importance? And does the face look familiar to anyone, possibly from a statue, coin, relief etc. So, what could it be? Didn’t emperors or generals carry a two foot ivory staff of office, something ornate with carvings wrapping around it, possibly ended in an eagle or something? I know Hollywood shows them carrying it but I don’t know about history showing it. If it is a short staff of importance, does anyone know of other examples that have survived? Or does anyone else care to speculate on what it could be from other pictures that they’ve seen, the leg to a chair, the handle of a horse hair swatter for swatting away flies etc. It looks like the back might be flat, we don’t know if it was made that way or the back broke off. It might be part of the relief of an ornate chest, like some of the burial chests. Either way it looks like something of importance in its time, it think that those of us with an interest in Rome would like to know, so if anyone has any ideas, lets pool our knowledge as see if we can’t figure it out. Thanks for the input or any feedback. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Dan Diffendale - 10-30-2006 Steve, it's from this thread: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11569 It's the Landesmuseum in Mainz. I'm not sure if it's also published in Hubertus Mikler: Die römischen Funde aus Bein im Landesmuseum Mainz. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006 Quote:Steve, it's from this thread: Thanks, I thought it was from here. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - john m roberts - 10-30-2006 A snake wrapped around a pillar was often a symbol for the genius loci, the guardian spirit of a place. Why such a symbol should be on a staff or handle I can't guess. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006 Quote:A snake wrapped around a pillar was often a symbol for the genius loci, the guardian spirit of a place. Why such a symbol should be on a staff or handle I can't guess. So it lends a little more weight to it possibly being from a burial chest or something similar. Thanks Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-30-2006 I came up with a few interesting remarks, some of which I thought would interest you. Working on the rod or staff theory, the sign of Esculapius or Asclepius, god of healing came to mind. This link has some nice coins. http://hobbyblog.blogspot.com/2003_11_3 ... chive.html Then there is this one www.harrow.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/strea ... t_id=27560 tying in the snakewrapped staff to the healing properties of plants (leaves, not feathers?) Then there is this tekstclipping: " The caduceus is the wand of the messenger of the gods, Hermes — or Mercury in Greek mythology. Though it often is used as a medical icon, the official symbol of the health care profession is the staff of Aesculapius, who was a son of Apollo and the god of healing. This god’s symbol has a single serpent wrapped around a rough-hewn tree branch. The American Medical Association adopted the staff of Aesculapius as its symbol in 1910. The AMA’s symbol has one snake entwined around a knotted staff. The ancients tell us that while the healer Aesculapius was visiting the house of a patient, a serpent coiled itself around the staff and Aesculapius killed it. Shortly thereafter, another serpent appeared with an herb leaf in its mouth and restored the dead serpent to life. Aesculapius kept the leaf, and with it was even better at healing people. He became so successful as a healer, he could even restore people from the dead. Homer singled him out in his epics as a mortal physician-hero who performed miraculous acts of healing on the battlefield. " bringing magical leaves into the story. There is mention of myrtle leaves, but these are pretty dubious to tie in directly. There is a reference to the use of laurel leaves in the rituals of the Pythoness (priestesses of Delphi), linked to the later Roman god Apollo. Perhaps this speculative line gets you further? Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-30-2006 To add to the speculation, read the text from fig 8. Lyon bowl. Your eagle may be a ram's head, the origin of the design being Celtic and the figure shown Cernonnus. http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/therest/Ce ... spaper.htm Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006 Quote:To add to the speculation, read the text from fig 8. Lyon bowl. Your eagle may be a ram's head, the origin of the design being Celtic and the figure shown Cernonnus. The symbol of the healing or possibly Hesperides. In Greek mythology, the Hesperides (Greek: Ἑσπερίδες) are nymphs who tend a blissful garden in a far west corner of the world, located, according to various sources, in the Arcadian Mountains in Greece, near the Atlas mountains in Libya, or on a distant blessed island at the edge of the ocean. According to the Greek poet Stesichorus, in his poem the "song of Geryon", and the Greek geographer Strabo, in his book Geographika (volume III), the Hesperides are in Tartessos, a location placed to the south of Iberia (Spain). The Greek poet Hesiod said that the ancient name of Cádiz was Erytheia, another name for the Hesperides. Others situate the gardens of Hesperides in the region located between Tangier (formely Tinjis) and Larache in Morocco. It could be either or none. With what I’ve seen so far, I tend to think it’s not military. It could still be part of a scepter, I’m not sure what they liked like back then. Just out of curiosity, with what we’ve seen of other sculptures, does that face look more Roman or Greek? Either way, it an interesting piece and I want to say thanks for the information and the links, I learned something new. Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 10-31-2006 Another one: Quote:Alexander the Paphlagonian Valete, Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 10-31-2006 And an interesting article about all the snake myths in the antiquity, at least one or two look to fit to that object, for the resemblance of the feathers to the palm leaves too: [url:p3cm7sf4]https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/9e9a470d5230cdda852563ef0059fa56/2d98e6a290cd241885256b0a00753ea7?OpenDocument[/url] Just forgotten the Mithra's snake. Valete, |