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What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Printable Version

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What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-26-2006

Hi,
This picture was taken from another thread.
I’m assuming the arrow is pointing to a grip. Does anyone know what is wrapping around the feathers, a snake? And what did the pommel look like? A serpent or possibly an eagle, or possible both, the snake's head facing one direction and the eagle's the other, forming the pommel.

Does anyone know of others like this? That would have definitely been a magnificent sword, I wonder what the rest of it looked like?

I can understand the eagle, but if that's a snake, what significance did a snake have to a Roman and who do you think that is a face of?

Question, question, question.

Thanks


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Matt Lukes - 10-28-2006

That's an odd piece to be sure. It certainly appears to be a snake encircling the feathers, but atop a head? And it's REALLY long for a handle...


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Peroni - 10-28-2006

I agree with Matt, it seems to be a snake.

But are they feathers? They could possibly represent leaves. Like a depiction of the serpent in the apple tree in the garden of Eden???? :?

It is much longer than the other 'grips' in the photo. It may not be a sword grip.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-28-2006

If the reference is biblical, perhaps the date of the piece may help. Too young, and we can rule out Eden. Any info on that, Steve? The object is quite long for a grip, and could be of ivory, as far as I can tell. It may be part of a staff ?? If it's solid, this would rule out a swordgrip, imo. which thread is it from?


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - A_Volpe - 10-29-2006

could it be a Medusa/Gorgon sort of image? The "feathers" going vertically may represent scales of a (large) snake motif...?


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006

Thanks for the input. I tried to find the thread it was from, I thought it was from RAT, from within the last two weeks, but I can’t find it. It may be from somewhere else.

After reading everyone’s post, I have to agree that it looks to long for a grip. I don’t know how I didn’t catch it myself, I just assumed that since it was sitting within other grips that it must have been one also, I’m glad everyone else didn’t temporally go brain dead as well.

I’m guessing that the picture is from a museum, so dating the sword, would help to determine the time frame. It looks like a spatha, but possibly on the short side, which makes it earlier the later, so I’m guessing too early for Eden.

I’m also assuming that it was found with the other Roman artifacts in the picture, which more likely then not, makes it Roman. I agree about it being made of ivory. If you click on the picture to makes it lager, looking at it closer, it definitely has characteristics of old ivory.

So, all we can do is speculate on what it might be. It those are feather then ok, does anyone know of any reference to snakes and eagles. Did Rome, (Eagle) defeat or have an ally that was represented as a snake? If those are leaves, then the snake must be wrapped around a tree or bush. Did Rome leave any references to snake as some importance? And does the face look familiar to anyone, possibly from a statue, coin, relief etc.

So, what could it be? Didn’t emperors or generals carry a two foot ivory staff of office, something ornate with carvings wrapping around it, possibly ended in an eagle or something? I know Hollywood shows them carrying it but I don’t know about history showing it. If it is a short staff of importance, does anyone know of other examples that have survived?

Or does anyone else care to speculate on what it could be from other pictures that they’ve seen, the leg to a chair, the handle of a horse hair swatter for swatting away flies etc. It looks like the back might be flat, we don’t know if it was made that way or the back broke off. It might be part of the relief of an ornate chest, like some of the burial chests.

Either way it looks like something of importance in its time, it think that those of us with an interest in Rome would like to know, so if anyone has any ideas, lets pool our knowledge as see if we can’t figure it out.

Thanks for the input or any feedback.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Dan Diffendale - 10-30-2006

Steve, it's from this thread:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11569

It's the Landesmuseum in Mainz.

I'm not sure if it's also published in Hubertus Mikler: Die römischen Funde aus Bein im Landesmuseum Mainz.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006

Quote:Steve, it's from this thread:

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11569

It's the Landesmuseum in Mainz.

I'm not sure if it's also published in Hubertus Mikler: Die römischen Funde aus Bein im Landesmuseum Mainz.

Thanks, I thought it was from here.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - john m roberts - 10-30-2006

A snake wrapped around a pillar was often a symbol for the genius loci, the guardian spirit of a place. Why such a symbol should be on a staff or handle I can't guess.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006

Quote:A snake wrapped around a pillar was often a symbol for the genius loci, the guardian spirit of a place. Why such a symbol should be on a staff or handle I can't guess.

So it lends a little more weight to it possibly being from a burial chest or something similar.

Thanks


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-30-2006

I came up with a few interesting remarks, some of which I thought would interest you. Working on the rod or staff theory, the sign of Esculapius or Asclepius, god of healing came to mind. This link has some nice coins.

http://hobbyblog.blogspot.com/2003_11_3 ... chive.html

Then there is this one

www.harrow.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/strea ... t_id=27560

tying in the snakewrapped staff to the healing properties of plants (leaves, not feathers?)

Then there is this tekstclipping:

" The caduceus is the wand of the messenger of the gods, Hermes — or Mercury in Greek mythology. Though it often is used as a medical icon, the official symbol of the health care profession is the staff of Aesculapius, who was a son of Apollo and the god of healing. This god’s symbol has a single serpent wrapped around a rough-hewn tree branch.

The American Medical Association adopted the staff of Aesculapius as its symbol in 1910.

The AMA’s symbol has one snake entwined around a knotted staff. The ancients tell us that while the healer Aesculapius was visiting the house of a patient, a serpent coiled itself around the staff and Aesculapius killed it. Shortly thereafter, another serpent appeared with an herb leaf in its mouth and restored the dead serpent to life.

Aesculapius kept the leaf, and with it was even better at healing people. He became so successful as a healer, he could even restore people from the dead. Homer singled him out in his epics as a mortal physician-hero who performed miraculous acts of healing on the battlefield. "

bringing magical leaves into the story. There is mention of myrtle leaves, but these are pretty dubious to tie in directly.

There is a reference to the use of laurel leaves in the rituals of the Pythoness (priestesses of Delphi), linked to the later Roman god Apollo.

Perhaps this speculative line gets you further?


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - Robert - 10-30-2006

To add to the speculation, read the text from fig 8. Lyon bowl. Your eagle may be a ram's head, the origin of the design being Celtic and the figure shown Cernonnus.

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/therest/Ce ... spaper.htm


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - stevesarak - 10-30-2006

Quote:To add to the speculation, read the text from fig 8. Lyon bowl. Your eagle may be a ram's head, the origin of the design being Celtic and the figure shown Cernonnus.

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/therest/Ce ... spaper.htm

The symbol of the healing or possibly Hesperides.
In Greek mythology, the Hesperides (Greek: Ἑσπερίδες) are nymphs who tend a blissful garden in a far west corner of the world, located, according to various sources, in the Arcadian Mountains in Greece, near the Atlas mountains in Libya, or on a distant blessed island at the edge of the ocean. According to the Greek poet Stesichorus, in his poem the "song of Geryon", and the Greek geographer Strabo, in his book Geographika (volume III), the Hesperides are in Tartessos, a location placed to the south of Iberia (Spain). The Greek poet Hesiod said that the ancient name of Cádiz was Erytheia, another name for the Hesperides. Others situate the gardens of Hesperides in the region located between Tangier (formely Tinjis) and Larache in Morocco.

It could be either or none. With what I’ve seen so far, I tend to think it’s not military.

It could still be part of a scepter, I’m not sure what they liked like back then. Just out of curiosity, with what we’ve seen of other sculptures, does that face look more Roman or Greek?

Either way, it an interesting piece and I want to say thanks for the information and the links, I learned something new.


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 10-31-2006

Another one:

Quote:Alexander the Paphlagonian

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Alexander the Paphlagonian, a celebrated impostor and worker of false oracles, was born at Abonouteichos in Paphlagonia in the early part of the 2nd century A.D. The vivid narrative of his career given by Lucian might be taken as fictitious but for the corroboration of certain coins of the emperors Lucius Verus and Marcus Aurelius (J.H. Eckhel, Doctrma Nummorum veterum, ii. pp. 383, 384) and of a statue of Alexander, said by Athenagoras (Apology, c. 26) to have stood in the forum of Parium.

After a period of instruction in medicine by a doctor who also, according to Lucian, was an impostor, he succeeded in establishing an oracle of Aesculapius at his native town. Having circulated a prophecy that the son of Apollo was to be born again, he contrived that there should be found in the foundations of the temple to Aesculapius, then in course of construction at Abonouteichos, an egg in which a small live snake had been placed. In an age of superstition no people had so great a reputation for credulity as the Paphlagonians, and Alexander had little difficulty in convincing them of the second coming of the god under the name of Glycon. A large tame snake with a false human head, wound round Alexander's body as he sat in a shrine in the temple, gave "autophones" or oracles unasked, but the usual methods practised were those of the numerous oracle-mongers of the time, of which Lucian gives a detailed account, the opening of sealed inquiries by heated needles, a neat plan of forging broken seals, and the giving of vague or meaningless replies to difficult questions, coupled with a lucrative blackmailing of those whose inquiries were compromising. The reputation of the oracle, which was in origin medical, spread, and with it grew Alexander's skilled plans of organized deception.

He set up an " intelligence bureau" in Rome, instituted mysteries like those of Eleusis, from which his particular enemies the Christians and Epicureans were alike excluded as "profane," and celebrated a mystic marriage between himself and the moon.

During the plague of A.D. 166 a verse from the oracle was used as an amulet and was inscribed over the doors of houses as a protection, and an oracle was sent, at Marcus Aurelius' request, by Alexander to the Roman army on the Danube during the war with the Marcomanni, declaring that victory would follow on the throwing of two lions alive into the river. The result was a great disaster, and Alexander had recourse to the old quibble of the Delphic oracle to Croesus for an explanation.

Lucian's own close investigations into Alexander's methods of fraud led to a serious attempt on his life. The whole account gives a graphic description of the inner working of one among the many new oracles that were springing up at this period. Alexander had remarkable beauty and the striking personality of the successful charlatan, and must have been a man of considerable intellectual abilities and power of organization. His income is said by Lucian to have reached an enormous figure. He died of gangrene of the leg in his seventieth year.

references:
This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, a publication now in the public domain.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Paphlagonian"

Valete,


Re: What is wrapping around the feathers of the grip? - TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS - 10-31-2006

And an interesting article about all the snake myths in the antiquity, at least one or two look to fit to that object, for the resemblance of the feathers to the palm leaves too:

[url:p3cm7sf4]https://notes.utk.edu/bio/greenberg.nsf/9e9a470d5230cdda852563ef0059fa56/2d98e6a290cd241885256b0a00753ea7?OpenDocument[/url]

Just forgotten the Mithra's snake.

Valete,