+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Roman Riverine Flotillas (/showthread.php?tid=7098)
Roman Riverine Flotillas - Lothia - 10-14-2006
Ave Civitas Erudatum
Most learned fellows,
I have a waterborne question.
During Trajan's reign Rome had riverine fleets on both the Euphrates and the Tigris. (I think)
I assume there were more transport than combat ships in a riverine fleet.
I have read nowhere else of Roman ships operating on the Tigris or the Euphrates.
If I am correct, north-bound river traffic stopped at Amida. If that were so, where would the fleets operate from? Bezebde?
By the rise of Constatnine I, most of the Tigris below Bezebde was in Persian hands. Were the ships moved north of Bezebde or disbanded?
I see no listing of Classis Mesopotamiae anywhere either. Classis Syriaca seems devoted to the Eastern Mediterranean.
Were those fleets still in existance in AD 336?
Thanks again.
Tom
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Praefectusclassis - 10-15-2006
Hi Lothia,
Although there are indications for fleets on the Euphrates and Tigris during various campaigns - Trajan, Severus Alexander, Julian - it is not usually thought that those fleets were around all the time. I.e., they were built for the purpose and then left to rot, burnt, or something of the sort.
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Robert Vermaat - 10-15-2006
Quote:Were those fleets still in existance in AD 336?Since Constantine would have been making preparations to invade Mesopotamia, I can't escape the suspicion that he also made preparations for the use of the rivers.
Of course this is pure speculation, but I guess there would have been preparations for a fleet similar to the one Julian used when he invaded a generation later.
And there's that enigmatic Late Roman unit in Britain, the Barcarii Tigrenses ('boatmen of the Tigris'), which is either some honorary name or a unit that was no longer of use in the east.
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Lothia - 10-29-2006
Ave Civitas,
Thanks for the information Guys. I just got Lionel Casson's "Ships and Seamanship" in the mail. Very good book. Haven't delved too deep into it yet (still have three more books in my "To be Read" pile before I get to that.
Are there any commercially available books on the Roman Navy that I might order from Alibris, Amazon, etc.?
I agree, Valerius. He had to be building a riverine fleet if he was planning on invading. My guess they would have been on the upper Tigris.
When Shapur besieged Nisibis in 338 he was in a position to cross the hills north into the Tigris Valley. (Bezebde was still held by the Romans then and closed up-river approaches to the Tigris south of Amida) But still, that must have caused Constantius II some worry about where to move his boats.
Does anyone know anybody who has been to the upper Tigris valley? All I have is photo's and satellite photo's to work with.
Thanks again.
Tom
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - L. Aufidius Pantera - 10-30-2006
books on the Roman Navy? The best one around is Redde's "Mare Nostrum" (1986) - ISBN 272830114X, although you'll have a bit of difficulty finding it (and it's in French...). There's always the outdated Starr, C.G. "The Roman Imperial Navy) - currently 3rd edition (1993), - ISBN 0890055440. On the Fleet in Britain there's Mason (2003) "Roman Britain and the Roman Navy" - ISBN 0752425412. For more French and info on the Black Sea go to Bounegru & Zahariade (1996) "Les Forces Navales du Bas Danube et de la Mer Noire..." - ISBN 1900188171. Do you read German? Then have a go for the German Fleet at Konen (2000) "Classis Germanica" - ISBN 3895901067 or Viereck (1996) "Die roemische Flotte" - ISBN 3930656337. Though the last one is extremely general and often disspears into the realms of wishful thinking....
Very little's been done on the fleets in the east, mainly because there's so little to go on... But the stuff above should give you something to start with (even if not all of it is available on amazon...try your local library!)
Hope that helps,
C.
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Lothia - 10-30-2006
Ave L. Aufidius Pantera,
Thanks for the listing. Procuring at least one of those books will be a help. I will do a search through the Inter-Library Loan department in Albuquerque.
You have been a great help.
Me.
Another title - Rufus Ephibatus - 01-28-2007
Good general work, a bit dated but often missed!
Greek and Roman Naval Warfare By W.L. Rodgers. Pub Naval Institute Press ISBN 0-87021-225-5.
Also, an interesting book on reconstruction of a Greek Tri.
The Athenian Trirene 2nd edition Morrison/Coates & Rankov. Pub Cambridge Press ISBN 0-521-564565
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Praefectusclassis - 01-28-2007
Quote:Greek and Roman Naval Warfare By W.L. Rodgers.And it skips the early empire entirely, dismissing the Roman fleets of the period as a 'mere coast guard'. That book is so infused with A.T.Mahan's theories, it's almost funny.
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Flavius Promotus - 01-29-2007
Quote:And it skips the early empire entirely, dismissing the Roman fleets of the period as a 'mere coast guard'. That book is so infused with A.T.Mahan's theories, it's almost funny.
Luckily I'm doing the late Roman period
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Praefectusclassis - 01-29-2007
But then you get to play with Rodgers' Naval Warfare under Oars which starts 300 years after the other book ended. Guess which period that is... :roll:
Re: Roman Riverine Flotillas - Eleatic Guest - 01-29-2007
Quote:Then have a go for the German Fleet at Konen (2000) "Classis Germanica" - ISBN 3895901067 or Viereck (1996) "Die roemische Flotte" - ISBN 3930656337.
Do these authors also mention the use of stern-mounted rudders by the Roman Rhine and Danube flotillas? There have been now some Roman stone reliefs excavated along the Rhine, depicting such rudders.
I wonder why these rudders are called in English rather steering oars. Any idea?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder