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+--- Thread: Two Swords for the Legionary? (/showthread.php?tid=7065)
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Crispvs - 10-10-2006
The only problem with the idea that Josephus was looking at his enemy and discribing it from that point of view is that by the time he did most of his writing he had changed sides and was accompanying Vespasian and Titus around and so would probably have been quite familiar with what he was describing. :twisted:
Crispvs
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Nicholas Gaukroger - 10-12-2006
Of course it could just be that they weren't wearing the swords regulation fashion.
Find me an army, ever, where everything was done by the book during a war.
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - emj1s - 10-12-2006
Good point.
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Matthew - 10-12-2006
It always seemed odd to me that Josephus should arrange the Gladius and Pugio contrary to the received view. I had thought it a translation error (I have had occasion to read that Knights wore their sword on the right in certain scholarly texts, which was obviously an editorial error), but I see that it is not just one translation. Assuming that it is not a mistranslation or editorial oversight, the Centurion arrangement always struck me as a possibility, but I like the Auxillary argument better. I think Nicholas' speculation is just as likely, though.
Matthew James Stanham
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Kate Gilliver - 10-12-2006
I'm inclined to agree with Wim / Cordus that Josephus is looking straight at the soldier rather than from the soldier's perspective. Either that, or he just got confused and couldn't tell his left from his right. I know quite a few car passengers like that - it comes out when they try to give directions.
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Magnus - 10-12-2006
That would make Josephus a bloom'n idiot then...lol.
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Nicholas Gaukroger - 10-13-2006
Quote:I'm inclined to agree with Wim / Cordus that Josephus is looking straight at the soldier rather than from the soldier's perspective.
Hope I'm not being rude but I do find such explanations assume that the Romans always did everything "by the book" which is, IMO, highly improbable hence my comment earlier. It strikes me that it is trying to force the evidence to fit a pre-conceived view rather than judging the evidence on its merits.
Not that I'm suggesting for a minute that we should ever be uncritical about evidence :lol:
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Magnus - 10-13-2006
Not to mention it assumes that Josephus is too moronic to realize that his left and right become the opposite when viewing someone head on. If that's the interpretation of this man's intelligence, why do we believe anything he says?
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Matthew - 10-13-2006
...and what about when he sees Centurions or Auxillaries head on? No, the explanation seems unlikely, but there still remains the possibility that Josephus wrote it down wrong or it has been altered in transmission. I have often wondered why he bothers to mention it at all. When Polybius tells us about the right hand side wearing of swords, the inference is that it was to his mind unusual. Why does Josephus remark on it? Is it because it was unusual for Romans to wear them on the left or unusual in general at that time? What side do the Jews wear their swords on?
Matthew James Stanham
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - M. Demetrius - 10-13-2006
I'm just a Latin I student, but sometimes word order makes translating things from Latin confusing to our syntax. Could it be nothing more than just a translator or copyist's error?
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - arklore70 - 10-13-2006
I have suspected that.*shrugs*
Mike
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 10-13-2006
All sources for wearing of equipment is not all literary,either. A picture(relief,statue) is still sometimes worth a thousand words.
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Alexandr K - 10-13-2006
Hi,
the original Greek text and the English translation by Whiston of the passage is here:
The Judean War III.5.5
Well I have learnt old Greek for some time, but today I don't know even the basic things (very difficult language, I'd say). I think, the translation is OK, but hey - look at the previous sentence again... :roll:
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Matthew - 10-13-2006
Quote:All sources for wearing of equipment is not all literary,either. A picture(relief,statue) is still sometimes worth a thousand words.
Unless the sculpter was looking dead on at an individual! :wink:
Many possibilities outside the text exist to explain Josephus' statement; are there any other indications within the text, though?
[Edit]
Hmmn. Yeah, I had forgotten that Josephus also describes the Cavalry wearing their Swords on their right hand side. A very odd passage; I can't make head nor tail of the Greek and my computer is not rendering it properly, so that doesn't help...
Re: Two Swords for the Legionary? - Alexandr K - 10-13-2006
Quote:I can't make head nor tail of the Greek and my computer is not rendering it properly, so that doesn't help...Perhaps you haven't the right font... see the instructions
Alexandr