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Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 05-14-2010
You do Alannus? Drat! If I wasn't in Canada and I was within the age specifications I would totaly be in that class!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-15-2010
Quote:You do Alannus? Drat! If I wasn't in Canada and I was within the age specifications I would totaly be in that class!
Maybe in the next life!
The kids will get a chance to fondle bows made from original materials-- horn, sinew, rawhide, and birch-bark. The Roman bows made by Grozer have identical siyahs to those found at Caerleon, which I believe date back to Julius Frontinus and his Second Legion which was stationed there. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Welsh short bow" was a knock-off (in different material) of the various bows brought over by the legions and cavalry. Safe to say if the Equites Taifali were stationed there, they had mounted archers. The Roman-steppe bow is pictured on the Vergil ms written in the Low Country or Wales, now at the Vatican.
I'll be a fun course to teach, giving the kids origins of the lasso, cowboy boots, the Grail, and the Sword in the Stone, all of which entered Britain and Armorica through either the Roman cavalry or the Alans/Taifali. (I have my reservations about Littleton and Malcor's Iazyges; too early. :wink: )
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 05-15-2010
Alanus..Did I ever ask you if you knew what tamgae were and if you had ever seen any with your Taefali. I have some nice ones here..probably Alannic
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-15-2010
Quote:Alanus..Did I ever ask you if you knew what tamgae were and if you had ever seen any with your Taefali. I have some nice ones here..probably Alannic
I have an image of Carthage mosaic with an Alan noble riding a horse with a tamga branded on its flank. But I've never found a depiction of an identified Taifalus, period, let alone any Taifali tamgae. In fact, to the present day many a historian other than Wolfram, who originally figured it out, believes the Taifali were "Germanic." (Duh!
hock: ) I wouldn't be surprised if tamgae were incorporated into the Roman cavalry, a logical way of displaying ownership of a horse, since we know cavalrymen owned their own mounts.Your question does bring up an interesting subject. The Taiflai Seniores had a mirror-imaged bear on their shield, and other cavalry units used the mirror image, which I think goes back to the steppes, then advances into Germanic and Roman culture, and then becomes all those heraldic mirrored eagles and lions we see on medieval coats-of-arms. One more little wrinkle to point out to the kids.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 05-15-2010
If you send me your e mail addres i ll send an attachment with a few dozen tamgas.
As you know, I Dont buy the Taefali being Sarmaty. But, that said, they could be Vandal who, contrary to pop opinion, were, it seems, Sclavonic with probably an Anthaib content. The Vandals have such a big history in Europe and yet so little is known about them.
And you ll never persuade me about bears and steppe culture. Taiga yes..but that aint cav country or cattle breeding country.
On that score, maybe you can help. Have you ever come across references in the histories to animal diseases such as murrain??? Or zoonosis such as Bovine TB???
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Robert Vermaat - 05-15-2010
Hi guys,
Quote:I don't know the cultural background of Ecdicius; always thought either an Alan or an Arvernus.
Quote:Crikey..I thought Ecdicius was an Alan anyway...from Vienne or somewhre..his father a roman sponsored "Quango prince" or summat.Gallic nobleman. Not a source in sight who makes him an Alan.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-16-2010
Yes Gallic, and it makes sense. I always thought he was probably an educated Arvernus since Sidonius wrote to him several times, always very complimentary and as a close associate.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 05-17-2010
Ecdicius was Sidonius' brother-in-law! Of course he was being nice, he kind of had to be. So back on topic. What do you educated gentlemen think of my idea or a cavalry arbandand its use in Britain at the time of Ambrosius? Just a recap here's my theory:
Quote:After delving back to Ecdicius again I figured that he and his nineteen men were just the "named companions". Now all this is hypothetical so prove me wrong if you must, but wouldn't they have two retainers each? And they would also be noblemen. Now supposing that this is correct you've got sixty men now just from the companions and their bodyguards but if you take into account the fact that each man had four servants and supposing they all had horses that would mean that Ecdicius' personal warband would number, gasp, three hundred men. Now likely only the first sixty men would have had lances and good quality armour but is it possible that all the others had a leather jerkin, a shield, sword, and javelins?Perhaps we should add bows to the arsenal of the elites and maybe switch the mounted servants with light infantry local levies? Or maybe servants is the wrong word. Um... :? !:
I know, pages, or squires! (I appologise for the use of medevial terms but the principal is the same.)
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 05-17-2010
Quote:dashydog:2a2h0etk Wrote:Your question does bring up an interesting subject. The Taiflai Seniores had a mirror-imaged bear on their shield, and other cavalry units used the mirror image, which I think goes back to the steppes, then advances into Germanic and Roman culture, and then becomes all those heraldic mirrored eagles and lions we see on medieval coats-of-arms. One more little wrinkle to point out to the kids.
Morning (T'is that here in Uk).
Bears aside....It might interest you to know that when you discuss mirror images this thing impinged greatly on Sarmatian and Alan culture. They seem to have been obsessed with mirrors. I cant recall all the different types of burial chamber they had in the 4 sarmatian periods or all the sites we know of but there are a great deal of mirrors in them. They seem to have been of immense importance to them but I do know why that was.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
Quote:Bears aside....It might interest you to know that when you discuss mirror images this thing impinged greatly on Sarmatian and Alan culture. They seem to have been obsessed with mirrors. I cant recall all the different types of burial chamber they had in the 4 sarmatian periods or all the sites we know of but there are a great deal of mirrors in them. They seem to have been of immense importance to them but I do know why that was.
You're observant! I think the mirror image goes back to the Scythians, maybe the Cimmerians. The high frequency of mirrors in Scythio-Sarmatian graves certainly had a religio-philosophical base. They are always present in warrior-priestess inhumations, perhaps symbolic of the "past and future." The supposed Golden "Man" of Issyk was wearing one, which could boost Dr. Kimball-Davis' theory that this person was a High Warrior Priestess (even my cracked theory that she was the Lady of the Lake).
For AOTB,
The juggling of numerical totals can almost be science, albeit not a very sound one. Something got lost between AD 400 and the medieval period-- namely Britain's history. What we wound up with are mostly bogus pedigrees (to slide great men into your family) and a bunch of ambiguous and altered poems. 300? Influenced by poems, Skene tripled it to 900. (Which then presents 3 cavalry units, which might correctly by headed by a British equivalent of the 3 original Roman commanders.) Rhys places the highest as the "Amherawdyr" (imperitor), the equivalent of the Count of Britain. But most post-Victorians and modernists don't believe there ever was a 900-rider British cavalry. 8)
(You want their names? Look to Morris, around page 124. Three commanders in a series of supposed battles-- Agricola, Marcellus, both presumably led by Theodoric/Tewdrig, the Big Cheese/Count of Britain?)
When we try to slide medieval terms-- "page" "knight" etc.-- into a post-Roman Celtic context, we cannot be accurate. There was a difference in the social structure of the Celts and Germans, the latter heavily influencing medieval European culture.
For the Celts: King Morgan had a singular "man," Guengarth, who accompanied him on excursions, as opposed to a beavy of pages, helpers, etc. Perhaps a passable book on late Celto-Brit culture would be William Probert's The Ancient Laws of Wales, which include social stratification, the Code of Education, the Hunting Laws, and the important Institutional Triads (as opposed the worthless Legendary Triads). Hard to put numbers on the followers of any king or noble, since it was an extended family structure, and familial traditions varied even though their gens-laws were similar. But remember that Probert was a pre-Victorian (1823). :wink:
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - dashydog - 05-19-2010
[qe different types of burial chamber they had in the 4 sarmatian periods or all the sites we know of but there are a great deal of mirrors in them. They seem to have been of immense importance to them but I do know why that was.[/quote]
You're observant! I think the mirror image goes back to the Scythians, maybe the Cimmerians. The high frequency of mirrors in Scythio-Sarmatian graves certainly had a religio-philosophical base. They are always present in warrior-priestess inhumations, perhaps symbolic of the "past and future." The supposed Golden "Man" of Issyk was wearing one, which could boost Dr. Kimball-Davis' theory that this person was a High Warrior Priestess (even my cracked theory that she was the Lady of the Lake).
To me, The Lady of the Lake is Rusalka but without the sword. Nice legends and very old! But, to be honest, itis hard to find a European race that doesnt have some sort of wee girly hanging around the lakes, ponds and rivers. I am always amazed by these poictures of the Lady holding the sword from within the lake. Not a touch of rust or weed around it. Reality journalism is obviously still too new!!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - ArthuroftheBritons - 05-19-2010
hock: Ok... you've lost me with all the Sarmatian talk. But thank-you for the comment Alanus. But just to let you know I was talking about how a unit mounted armed, and armoured like I mentioned could opperate in the field. (By the way numbers don't matter, just the structure.) Also I don't trsut Morris anymore, he uses circumstantial evidence too much. Also, I think our answers lie either with the Southern Britons, or the Northern ones. Either way, Wales is only likely just the surface of this subject.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010
The Norsemen peat bog process of smelting added silica into the mix when forging. This would add some form of rust resistance at least until about the third forging. Thus the blade being cast back into the lake according to Arthurian legend.
Let's not forget the magical Excalibur. :lol:
In regards to stirrups I heard they were invented in India which is adjacent to the silk road. I am unaware of what source this is from. Perhaps one could provide some enlightenment!
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Alanus - 05-19-2010
AOTB,
I don't wholly trust Morris, either. But in this case, he may have been onto something because it links to the late Roman cavalry in Britain, even though he seemed unaware of such units as the two Equites Taifali (in the south) and the Equites Catafractarii (in the north). This gives Morris more weight.
I see no reason to assume that a post-Roman British cavalry would not have all the typical Roman and Celtic weapons at its disposal, as you've suggested. As for armor; it could easily have been worn for a century after it was made-- scale armor resewn onto new leather, and chainmail still finding new owners. Same with helmets, some of which were used for two centuries.
Re: Sub-Roman Britain Cavalry - Ron Andrea - 05-19-2010
At the battle of Tours, AD 732, the defending Franks still lacked stirrups while the invading Moors had them. Assumedly, no western army would have had stirrups much before that or the Franks would have had them. Needless to say, the franks adopted them after that battle, thus changing the mode of western warfare and leading to the whole military, political, social structure that we know as the Middle ages.
Having specific references is good, of course, but the lack of them is not proof that a given thing didn't exist--as has been discussed above. This is basic logic, not historical proof or disproof. We make inferences from artifacts, archeology and documentation and then, when new evidence appears, we refine our theories.