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+--- Thread: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years (/showthread.php?tid=6622)
Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Theodosius the Great - 08-24-2006
A tattooed nobleman, no less
Theo
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Robert Vermaat - 08-25-2006
Thanks for the link Theo!
500 BC - when did these folks get to be horse-warriors? A bit before that, right? If really a Scythian, he was indeed buried far more to the east than is usual. And if burials indeed are closely connected to land ties and territorial claims..
hock: This may open a political can of worms, because 'Scythian' usually means 'European', and the Chinese won't be very happy with that! This man isn't exhibited in Germany for no reason! I'm not going to open the cesspit of migration/invasion discussions here, but I bet there will be some scientific bitching ahead of us about whether the artefacts of this burial should also mean fair skin and an Indo-European language.. :roll: After all, we've ben there before with an earlier 'ice mummy'.
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Arthes - 08-25-2006
Greetings,
I think this is a fantastic find and have posted the link to a new discussion group that specifically covers the Steppes/Euroasian peoples...
The Scythians or proto Scythians, I believe, could be the origins of the Centaur....so the the concept of a man who seemed to be partially horse and firing arrows was around long before 500bce...!
The mummified remains found in Xinjiang/Cherchen are evidence that Europeans had settled in the East around 3,000 years ago...so finding a possible Indo European warrior in this region would not be unusual. It could have been a result of intermarriage between two of the tribes of the Altai region or simply a case of burial outside of his home area...
Some of the burials classed as Scythian, have, in fact, shown signs of Eastern heritage....the other famous tatooed Scythian warrior was of Mongolian ancestry..ruling a Caucasian tribe by the look of it.
This is a page on tattoos, but gives some relative information Ancienttattooedpeople
regards
Arthes
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Chariovalda - 08-25-2006
Quote:Thanks for the link Theo!
500 BC - when did these folks get to be horse-warriors? A bit before that, right? If really a Scythian, he was indeed buried far more to the east than is usual. And if burials indeed are closely connected to land ties and territorial claims..
This may open a political can of worms, because 'Scythian' usually means 'European', and the Chinese won't be very happy with that! This man isn't exhibited in Germany for no reason! I'm not going to open the cesspit of migration/invasion discussions here, but I bet there will be some scientific bitching ahead of us about whether the artefacts of this burial should also mean fair skin and an Indo-European language.. :roll: After all, we've ben there before with an earlier 'ice mummy'.
I take it you are referring to the "ice princess"?
Well, I don't know whether the Chinese will be bothered much by whether the body was biologically "western Eurasian" or not, but it may discomfort the Mongols a bit. Another "Scythian" body of about the same age, found at Kizil, Altai Republic, on the "Russian" side of the Altai proved to be linked by DNA to western Eurasian populations (specifically eastern Europe, India and Iran).
Then again, so what? Analysis of bodies found in the Egyin Gol necropolis in northern Mongolia that were several centuries younger indicated a population genetically very similar to the modern one, albeit with evidence of admixture (10% or so) with Europeans/western Eurasians. Mongolia, or at least parts of it, seems to have been a place where "Scythian" and "Altaic" peoples met and mingled, and common cultural traits were spread all over the Eurasian steppe zone.
I think an ancient Scythian or Hun would probably laugh at our concepts of race and nation... 8)
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - hoplite14gr - 08-25-2006
Yes we discussed the "ice princess" in the buttered Skythians thread in the Greek section. Guess that is what Robert is refering to.
Pesonally I would like to see more evidence of the tatoos.
In the Kurgan "ice mummies" the noblewoman was without tatoos but the two slaves(?) buried with her were tatooed.
I will a bit (not much) dissagree with Andreas about an ancient laughing at us. Identification of "us vs others" was importand in acnient cultures and they didn much bother about our "modern sencitivities" who are very concerned in "avoiding offence".
Kind regards
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Chariovalda - 08-25-2006
Quote:Yes we discussed the "ice princess" in the buttered Skythians thread in the Greek section. Guess that is what Robert is refering to.
Pesonally I would like to see more evidence of the tatoos.
In the Kurgan "ice mummies" the noblewoman was without tatoos but the two slaves(?) buried with her were tatooed.
I will a bit (not much) dissagree with Andreas about an ancient laughing at us. Identification of "us vs others" was importand in ancient cultures and they didn much bother about our "modern sencitivities" who are very concerned in "avoiding offence".
Kind regards
Stefanos,
I agree with the "us vs others" comment, it's just that the Scythians (and Huns, and Romans etc.) followed completely different guidelines from us when it comes to defining "us" and "others".
It seems to me that most peoples, now and then, (very) broadly make a distinction between "us", "people like us" and "people unlike us". I wonder if the Scythians would have included fellow nomads of "Altaic" stock but with a similar culture and way of life in the last category, and (most of us) in the second, just because we're, like them, biologically mostly western Eurasian.
Hmmm...better watch this thread, before it turns really political. :oops:
Anyone interested in the contents of the Scythian ice mummy's stomach?
Personally, I wonder how much vegetable matter compared to meat and dairy products that guy ate.
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - hoplite14gr - 08-25-2006
Hmmm...
It might be a generalization but:
A Skythian clan might be at war with another Skythian clan.
Then the two might join forces to have a go at the "Altaics" or any one else who had something that they wanted.
And then again might be at each others throat in a "friently discussion" about the loot 8)
It was the way that things were done then.
But the natural tendency would be to attempt to ally ones self with whom he can possibly "identify". That does not exclude "unusual" alliance of convenience.
The accounts of Alexnader's fight in Arachosia and Bactria tell of his attempt to try and play one distinct population group against the other, rather than risk having different clans of one people united against him.
There are no clear cut answers on the subject I belive.
Kind regards
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Theodosius the Great - 08-25-2006
Your welcome, Valerius.
BTW, here's more from Der Spiegel and it has a photo gallery :The man has blond hair and died in his thirties
Guess the Chinese will have to swallow that :roll: :wink:
Quote:Thanks for the link Theo!
500 BC - when did these folks get to be horse-warriors? A bit before that, right? If really a Scythian, he was indeed buried far more to the east than is usual. And if burials indeed are closely connected to land ties and territorial claims..
This may open a political can of worms, because 'Scythian' usually means 'European', and the Chinese won't be very happy with that! This man isn't exhibited in Germany for no reason! I'm not going to open the cesspit of migration/invasion discussions here, but I bet there will be some scientific bitching ahead of us about whether the artefacts of this burial should also mean fair skin and an Indo-European language.. :roll: After all, we've ben there before with an earlier 'ice mummy'.
Theo
re: The pugio in your picture - Johnny Shumate - 08-26-2006
Have the remains of a bow been found?
Johnny
Re: re: The pugio in your picture - Theodosius the Great - 08-26-2006
Quote:Have the remains of a bow been found?
Johnny
The BBC article only says :
Two horses with saddles and weapons and also vessels were also found in the burial mound, or kurgan.
The archaeologists say they were placed in the tomb to accompany the warrior into the next life.
But what type of weapons ? Knives, swords, bows ? I'll keep posting if I find any more details.
Theo
Re: re: The pugio in your picture - Theodosius the Great - 08-26-2006
Quote:Have the remains of a bow been found?
Johnny
OK, I just found out more details : YES
He was buried with a dagger, a battle axe, and bows & arrows.
I didn't know horsemen used battle axes :?
Theo
(BTW, I couldn't delete my last post. Has that feature been disabled ? Moderators ?)
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - Emeraldweapon7d - 08-26-2006
could it be possible the axe is just meant for utilitarian purposes and the reporter just assumed it was a battle axe?
every time one of these well perserved bodies are found i feel silly for getting angry at a bunch of dead people for not dumping a nice scale cuirass or a pile of tunics in these well perserved tombs.
Re: re: The pugio in your picture - Arthes - 08-26-2006
Quote:I didn't know horsemen used battle axes :?The Scythians used axes, seen here- scroll down.
Also BattleAxe
Here are HA members portraying Scythians from the Altairegion...
Scroll down this page for a Gold plated cermonial axe
regards
Arthes
Re: Scythian mummy found in Mongolia - dates back 2,500 years - hoplite14gr - 08-26-2006
Sagaris (battle axe) was favored by Saka Tigrahauda (Saka with tall hats).
The pointed edge was fearsome. There helmet in the Olympia Meuseum that show clear markings of penetration of such a weapon.
The problem was tha only the first rank could engage so spearmen got the better of them.
As for tatoos. My wife after browsing several russian sites said that it is still a heated subject if they markings are curved tatoos or justbodypaint preserved because of the mumification. The argument that they were tatoos is stressed in tatoo parlor webpages and that makes it suspect in my opinion.
Kind regards.
re - Johnny Shumate - 08-26-2006
Those are great..!
What museum..?
I would love to see them larger. Can you email them to me..?
Thanks,
Johnny