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Re: Rome vs Japan - Narukami - 08-10-2006
Quote:Magnus:25dqfucs Wrote:tlclark:25dqfucs Wrote:On a side note. I love medieval and feudal Japaneses culture, but after watching Japanese television...
What the heck happened to Japan!
Travis
You mean like MXC...Most Extreme Elimination Challenge?
That's quality...and it makes me LMAO!
HAHHAAHAHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLvjd3K6 ... ed&search=
What the heck?!
I don't understand why Japan couldn't just be Japan without all the imperialism/war stuff after WWII. Why did it become this pop culture bizarro world?
No offense intended. I just don't get it.
Travis
Old Japan is there there, in fact even more so than "old" America or perhaps even "old Europe."
Tokyo is very much a SciFi City of pop culture gone wild, as Osaka is a bastion of chonin (that is to say merchant) practicality and pragmatism, but Kyoto is the cultural heart of Japan. (In fact, these cities have worn these mantles since the days of the Shoguns.) Visit Kyoto and you will find old Japan all around you.
Take the kabuki theatre for example. It is possible today, in Tokyo or Kyoto, to see a play performed in essentially the same manner it was over 200 years ago. The same text, movements, stage business, costumes and language. If Donjuro I were to sit through a performance of Shibaraku today staring his descendant Donjuro IX he would see some changes, but he would also see himself up there, the characters still being performed as he had performed them nearly 300 years before.
The same can not be said even of Shakespeare (work at the new Old Globe Theatre not withstanding). These are not special academic productions or museum theatres but going concerns enjoying a rise in popularity due to the new young stars who are performing in films and on television as well as the kabuki stage.
This apples to other arts as well: sword making (as has been discussed in this thread already) cloth dying, paper making, pottery, etc. etc. etc.
However...
What is still intact from old Japan, perhaps their most important trait, is the ability of the Japanese people to take an idea or concept from the outside and make it uniquely their own.
Zen is a classic example of this, but so too (as Goffredo so correctly points out) is their pop culture. Look at their TV game shows. They did not invent this sub genre, but looking at their game shows you would think they had. Certainly they have made it their own.
In one respect at least I think the Japanese and the Ancient Romans were very much alike. The Romans were practical and pragmatic to a fault, and so too are the Japanese. Yes, their 'samurai honor' can, and often did, get in the way of practicality, (a strong sense of honor has a way of doing that) but on the whole I think them in agreement on this point.
Others here have a deeper knowledge or better academic foundation in regards to both Japan and Ancient Rome, and they might better speak to this point. (Or disagree if they will.) I will defer to their knowledge, yet on this I do not think I am mistaken.
We have started to drift quite a distance from the original topic, but a lively conversation all the same.
:wink:
Narukami
Re: Rome vs Japan - tlclark - 08-10-2006
Ok, now Italy is a country I know a little better than Japan, having lived there last year. I suppose if I had to judge Italians by their TV that would be an unfair judgement. There is far more to Italy than Game show girls.
Still, Japanese TV is just a riot.
However, the breadth of Japanese culture is just amazing. It's nice to know it's still there.
Anyway, it seems the first step to a scientific determination of whether a legionaire could defeat a samurai is to see if we can get a dozen re-enactors to do the "algorithim march"! If that's possible, I will believe anything.
Travis
Re: Rome vs Japan - tlclark - 08-10-2006
Ok, it's official.
I don't get Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkXdPZAbmyk
Re: Rome vs Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-10-2006
Narukami i totally agree with you on the subject!
and the same goes for the ancient theatre form of Bunraku and Noh for that matter...
M.VIB.M.
Re: Rome vs Japan - Narukami - 08-11-2006
Quote:Narukami i totally agree with you on the subject!
and the same goes for the ancient theatre form of Bunraku and Noh for that matter...
M.VIB.M.
Yes indeed, quite right Marcus. Although not as popular as the kabuki, they are never the less alive and readily available for consumption. There is also kyogen, the short comic farces that appear between the different No plays in a typical performance. A close friend at the UH did her PhD dissertation on the Bunraku and my wife's MFA project was a series of Hawaiian legends performed in the kyogen style.
In some ways the kyogen might be compared to the Roman farce, but I will need to do more research before I make such a claim.
As for Japanese TV, well, I'm with you TLC. Japanese TV shows are simply amazing.
hock: :roll: :? And yes, let's see some video of a group of Roman legionaries doing the algorithm march. Now there is a fair contest without the need to spill any blood. Of course one might say the Monty Python Flying Circus already did this, but they are professionals and should be excluded from this contest. :wink:
Narukami
Re: Rome vs Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-11-2006
I am getting there.............!!!
slowly but gradually my kit is coming together! just got the SODE........
still have to restore much of the DO...... but well..........
collecting Samurai Armor is a slow process if you arent rich!!!
![[Image: yoroi1.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/IMPERIALCOMMAND/yoroi1.jpg)
back to the discussion.....
compared to a full Japanese gusoku (suit of armor):
![[Image: Parts%20of%20a%20gusoku.jpg]](http://www.wholesaleknives.co.uk/Parts%20of%20a%20gusoku.jpg)
A LEGIONARY!!! ............
![[Image: maproemer2.gif]](http://www.roemercohorte.de/maproemer2.gif)
I REST MY CASE............. :twisted:
M.VIB.M.
Re: Rome vs Japan - Tiberius Geracius - 08-11-2006
Nice kit. I have to wonder how many soldiers in the Japanies army could afford or wore that armor. Yes a Samurai would have a suit of armor, but not the rest of the common soldiers. Like I have said in a one on one fight the Samurai would most of the time win the fight. However in a unit (Ground battle no horses) fight the Legion has the advantage. While the Samurai are comming up the Legion would through their pilum (and trust me they work I have seen what happens when they are thrown at people). So before they even get to swords the Samurai have either been a little dissorganized from the missel attack or have lost a few soldiers. Next when the Samurai get to the Legion lines they face a wall of shields and swords. Though I am a little lacking in the various weapons the Samurai would have used, but they would still have a hard time breaking up this wall.
Again this is a what if. Just look at David and Giant. We have to look at not only armor, but skill, weapons, tacticts, beliefs, and much much more. Regardless it would be an interesting fight to see.
Re: Rome vs Japan - Magnus - 08-11-2006
Marcus!!! Dude, where did you get all those parts from? Are they antiques or repros? Where did you get the menpo?
Ben, you're not taking into account the massive amount of missile troops employed by Samurai armies. We're talking both bows and muskets. Before the legionarys heavy infantry even get close to javelin range, they're being pounded by arrows and shot.
The Dacians were able to punch holes in the Roman shield wall with the Falx...the no-dachi, naginata and nagamaki would all be able to accomplish the same feat.
I also have little doubt that the samurai's mounted troops would over power it's Roman counterparts, armed with Yari or bows. The Romans at first had great difficulty with the mounted archers and cavalry of the Persians/Parthians...without prior engagements, I forsee the Romans haveing the same problems with a samurai army.
And as Marcus pointed out in a comparison picture, the Legionarys are a lot more vulnerable to repeated missile fire, either head on or from above. And even if the legionarys form a testudo, then they're creating openings for the faster, mounted samurai to move around the battle line and hit from the side or behind.
Re: Rome vs Japan - Tiberius Geracius - 08-11-2006
I am just talking infantry vs. infantry. It would be unfair to inclued muskets into this equation. Also keep another thing in mind samurai can be equated to the europian knights. Though the Samurai didnt always wear the same armor there were standards i might say that every samurai world carry. Marcus shows us a great example of an armor set, but historically not all samurai would carry the same style and quality of armor. The legion on the other hand in the 1st and 2nd century had a standardized armor set. Also Romans werent horse men the Auxillaries were. They also had archers again auxillaries and thats not all if you cat now we can throw in bolt shooters and stone throughers aswell. LOL
All I have to say is this Rome took over most of Europe, Northern Africa, and Parts of the Middle East. So their army had to be doing something right.
Re: Rome vs Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-11-2006
Hey Magnvs!
well! the do is from about 1860, but still in fair shape, need to do a bit of touching up on the gold painted oyster shell powder stucco....the menpo is a high quality repro, probably showa or later, the sode are also showa.... so missing still are the haidate, suneate, kote and kabuto....
i need to relace and repaint the plates of the do (probably not with urushi)
put new printed egawa (leather) on it, and relace the men, and then either continue on the kabuto i am reconstructing from an old lobster-tailed helmet... will post a pic of that one soon......
or just buy a repro kabuto, but not a hanwei one! YUCK!!!!!!! however they dont come cheap and making my own equipment is much more fun!
dont know yet......
anyone for you wo would like to try to make it yourself, i advise Anthony Bryant's site www.sengokudaimyo.com
i agree on your mounted Samurai theory also, and i for one hold not only the Yumi (Japanese longbow) but also the Yari in high esteem...
A Samurai battle always began with the Yumi....... and not one arrow, but thousands upon thousands of arrows, armor piercing tips, whistle tips and what have you..... so we could as well disregard arquebuses, cannon and shot....
Personally there is not much that convinces me for the the theory of success of a legion against a well trained samurai army....... however that may be well known now.......
no matter how much i respect the ancient Roman army for that matter....
but as you see i am biassed to say the least......
so where is that poll ! ?
M.VIB.M.
BTW:
"All I have to say is this Rome took over most of Europe, Northern Africa, and Parts of the Middle East. So their army had to be doing something right."
eeh if you count the armor of the gallic tribesmen as high classed...... eeh.......? barbarii.......? nay, the Picts!.......
I think the worst enemies of Rome did come from the east...... Jugurtha and the parthians etcetera....... not the western european civilisations.... like the celtic and germanic tribes......
but thats just a remark on the side....
oh yes..... and a Samurai was much more able to move in his armour than any european counterpart knight for that matter!
Re: Rome vs Japan - Magnus - 08-12-2006
Marcus, I applaud you on your collection my friend. Where did you get the menpo? I'm going to attempt making a kabuto out of a WW I era Swiss Army helmet. Check it out on ebay, if you can find one. The shape of it as a base helmet looks pretty good. But the menpo...yikes! I have a few ideas for making one...mostly using auto-body stuff, like bondo and liquid fiberglass (Bondo is this paste-like stuff that dries super hard, and you can sand it.)
I started working on my okigawa do again Marcus..I snapped a few shots of the back plates that I'm rivetting together. I'll have to update my website of Japanese stuff once I get farther ahead. Have you seen my japanese site? www.geocities.com/thearmourroom/ I'll have more stuff to put on there as well, once I get around to it.
Hey Ben,
Well, the original post was a single Legionary vs a single Samurai. But if you wanted to put infantry vs infantry, I agree that the first few vollies of pila are going to hurt the first few ranks of samurai. But here's the problem. There's a really, really good chance that the samurai won't break and run. And depending on what the samurai are again armed with, they could break the shield wall and exploit a gap. Remember, the katana was a sidearm, like the pugio, so you have to pick your poison...naginata, yari, etc. etc.
All low-ranking samurai wore what would be called "munitions" grade panoplies. Only Ashigaru (peasent soldiers), were outfitted with less armour, or non-solid torso armour kind of like a coat of plates. It was the duty of the Daimyo to ensure all of his retainers (samurai) had presentable, even if simple full cuirasses. That's where the difference in high vs low ranking samurai came into play. Decorations, material type (silk vs leather strapping in some cases), and complexity marked a higher ranked samurai's armour. But all lower ranked samurai still had a complete set of armour as pictured in Marcus's post.
The Romans had some cavalry units, I don't think they were completely auxilliaries, but that harkens back to a Legion vs a Samurai army.
Rome was very successful, but it's unfair to compare the Roman Empire given Japan's isolation. I don't think politically Japan during the feudal period was ever really imperialistic anyway.
I also can't see a Roman Army fairing well against one that came almost 1,500 years later given the differences in technology alone. I think in reality it's an unfair comparison...ancient vs medieval/feudal.
BTW - does anyone know who I lent my copy of "The Last Samurai" to?
Re: Rome vs Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-12-2006
Hey Magnvs!
Pmmed you about the menpo... Mine is from Toraba....
M.VIB.M.
Re: Rome vs Japan - Narukami - 08-12-2006
Marcus & Magnus,
Great suits of armor, even if works in progress the results so far are quite impressive.
Good luck with the endevour! (And post photos of the results.)
Narukami
Re: Rome vs Japan - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 08-12-2006
domo arigato gozaimasu!!!
M.VIB.M.
Kusunoki Masahige
Re: Rome vs Japan - tlclark - 08-13-2006
Quote:I REST MY CASE............. :twisted:
M.VIB.M.
First off, FABULOUS KIT!
Second, this still seems like apples and oranges. Compare your samurai to these:
http://www.levantia.com.au/military/h_infantry.html
Remember, these are still Romans. When met with the challenge of the Mongols, Turks, Persians and others, they improvised.
A legionaire would never be alone either, so it's kinda a moot point, but the byzantine knight could be so it's a more apt comparison.
Personally, I think the klibanarii beat the samurai, ounce for ounce.