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+--- Thread: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? (/showthread.php?tid=6210)
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\'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-16-2006
Okay, is this a tatoo or brand?
[url:2ig0yg4c]http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius/dere03.php#06[/url]
Or a mistranslation?
"The recruit, however, should not receive the military mark* as soon as enlisted."
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tib. Gabinius - 07-16-2006
Vegetius wrote: "...punctis signorum inscribendus..."
Punctus means "stiched" (?), in german "gestochen".
But it cant be said 100% clearly, so the translation stay away from method of signed and should do.
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-16-2006
Thanks, interesting. So quite possibly (and only possibly) a stitched mark on the tunic.
Could 'punctis' also also mean 'to penetrate', or 'to cut', possibly on the skin? I'm not trying to say the man was physically marked, just to get as many possible meanings together :wink:
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Peroni - 07-16-2006
As an aside,
The ancient Icelandic peoples applied tattoos by passing a soot loaded thread through the skin to make straight line "stitching" markings.
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - conon394 - 07-16-2006
Tarbicus
You might find this article interesting
C P Jones “Stigma: Tattooing and Branding in Graeco-Roman Antiquityâ€
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-16-2006
Thanks Paul, I'm searching for it now.
I did stumble across this short essay which uses the article extensively according to the author. Well worth a quick read:
[url:3c52t42f]http://www.biblehistory.com/142.htm[/url]
More info on ancient tattooing and branding:
[url:3c52t42f]http://www.mgilleland.com/april2004.htm[/url]
And indeed I've found the article in a webforum, although it's only a brief summary:
[url:3c52t42f]http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/55599[/url]
Quote:Soldiers
Of the free Roman citizenry, by far the largest group to sport tattoos were the soldiers. Like the gladiators, many soldiers tattooed religious or protective images on their faces. Soldiers also used tattoos as a permanent means of depicting rank or affiliation. They would also tattoo their bodies in order to commemorate important battles or instances in which they showed extreme valor. While the face was a favorite tattoo site, soldiers tended to use their whole body as a canvas, including their hands.
Holy crap!!!
hock: hock: I'll still try to get the full article just to make sure of this and check it out properly :lol: I'm not taking this on "face" value :roll:
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-16-2006
Someone has very kindly confirmed 4th C is the earliest, and what Vegetius describes is dotted puncture marks in the flesh.
"uicturis in cute punctis scripti"
The dots apparently showed the soldier's unit so he could not run away and hide, (puncta signorum). A constitution of 398 lays down that 'stigmata, that is, a public mark, must be made on the arms of fabriciensis in the manner of recruits, so that in this way at least they may be recognised if they hide.'
My jaw's on the floor. Can anyone point out any flaws here?
As a follow up to the above, it would seem that those Roman men who recieved tattoos were those that were indentured to the state; soldiers and manufacturers of arms (the latter in itself interesting) and was still being practiced in the 9th C.
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Peroni - 07-17-2006
Jim,
Thanks for finding these interesting articles. As someone who has many traditional Tahitian and Marquesan Island tattoos this is especially engrossing!
Quote:Soldiers
Of the free Roman citizenry, by far the largest group to sport tattoos were the soldiers. Like the gladiators, many soldiers tattooed religious or protective images on their faces.
I have often wondered about some of the markings on the faces of parade helmets, and considered that maybe they were depicting the tattoos of the wearer or perhaps the tribal tradition of the soldier(?)
Here's what I'm talking about..
Nijmegen Kopsplateau 1 (Possibly Batavian)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... rymask.jpg
Nijmegen Kopsplateau 2 (Possibly Batavian)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... D-II-2.jpg
Emesa
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... /emesa.jpg
Aintab
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... intab1.jpg
Here's the detail of the designs..
![[Image: tattoomasks.jpg]](http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/tattoomasks.jpg)
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-17-2006
Hi Adrian, thanks. I have the article, and I can't actually find the reference to Roman soldiers doing a gladiator thing and tattooing themselves on the face. Certainly many of those who became gladiators through being condemned would sport tattoos on their faces or foreheads, but I don't know where the above person got their info about Roman soldiers doing the same within the article. There are references to non-slaves and citizens having tattoos removed from their face, forehead and top of the head mentioned by Aetius, and also legal references to soldiers having tattoos on their arms and not specifically their hands. There are other references to the removal of tattoos from the forehead also, so it definitely happened.
One thing that might explain the facemask markings are that if they represent Amazons then that could tie in with instances of Thracian women being tattooed in early antiquity. The holes on the masks' lower eyelids could just be there to help the rider see down through the mask as he would be higher up than his opponent, and to glance at the horse and ground about him.
The article says that extensive tattooing for decorative purposes is seen as one of the lowest barbarian practices. However, given the shock of the appearance of Caesar's legions on their return from conquest (Gallic Wars?) who knows? Perhaps their barbaric appearance was in more than just their clothing?
Parthians may also have tattooed prisoners of war.
Utilitarian needs, degradation, and marks of indenture (soldiers) seem to have been the normal Roman use for tattoos by and large, although given what seems to be a sizeable market for doctors to remove tattoos perhaps many Romans woke up with hangovers and "a little something extra that wasn't there the day before", just as some do today. :wink:
The adoption of tattooing was probably passed from the Persians to the Greeks, and then from the Greeks to the Romans. Stigma was the usual word for it, but by Byzantine times that word had other connotations.
Perhaps there's a market for unit mark versions of those tattoos we had as kids, where you lick the paper it's on and apply it?
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-17-2006
Does anyone know who Cassandra Franklin-Barbajosa is? She wrote an article for the National Geographic magasine, stating boldly that...
Fighting an army of Britons who wore their tattoos as badges of honor, some Romans came to admire their enemies' ferocity as well as the symbols that represented it. Soon Roman soldiers were wearing their own body marks; Roman doctors even perfected the art of application and removal.
[url:2w8tb8kj]http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0412/online_extra.html[/url]
I'd love to know her sources.
note: it could be from here - [url:2w8tb8kj]http://www-mcnair.berkeley.edu/98journal/mshakoor/[/url]
Quote:As someone who has many traditional Tahitian and Marquesan Island tattoos this is especially engrossing!I recognise that balteus!
[url:2w8tb8kj]http://www.dreamstime.com/tattooarmedromansoldier-image223023[/url]
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Peroni - 07-17-2006
Jim said,
Quote:The adoption of tattooing was probably passed from the Persians to the Greeks, and then from the Greeks to the Romans. Stigma was the usual word for it, but by Byzantine times that word had other connotations.
Yes, the Scythian and Pazyryk finds of preserved bodies still have tattoos of animals on their skin. Don't forget Otzi, the iceman either, he's the oldest record we have of tattooing.
On the subject of the patterns seen on the face of the Emesa facemask, they could also have provided a small amount of ventilation. In most of the pictures I have they look like niello inlay, but yes, they could be holes. I cannot make the detail out for certain from the three pictures I have.
As for this...
Quote:I recognise that balteus!
http://www.dreamstime.com/tattooarmedro ... mage223023
Yes that's me :oops: Must've been taken at Corbridge last year when I was on light duties. I have no armour on due to a back injury at the time!
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-17-2006
Quote:Don't forhet the iceman either, he's the oldest record we have of tattooing.There was an interesting documentary about him, where an acupuncturist has probably figured out what Otzi's tattoos were for. He had old injuries and ailments, and the acupuncturist recognised the tattos on his back as a 'road map' of acupuncture points. Lo and behold, the points marked on the 'map' corresponded exactly to where to put the needles to help Otzi's pain from those exact injuries. Otzi was wearing his prescription on his own body, so that when he went from village to village the local healer could give him his pain relief
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Peroni - 07-17-2006
His bones showed signs of rheumatic/arthritic damage in the area's of the Tattoos IIRC.
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Tarbicus - 07-17-2006
That was it, thanks (old age creeping up).
Check this out:
[url:1mcd9ufp]http://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/tattoo%20paper.htm[/url]
Make your own temporary legionary tattoos with an inkjet printer!
Re: \'The military mark\' in Vegetius? - Salvianus - 07-19-2006
Assuming tattoos on the backs of hands on arms, can we speculate as to their form - Legion/ Cohort number? Would that be too changeable? Miles?
Any ideas?