+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Reenactment (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Forum: Roman Re-Enactment & Reconstruction (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=26)
+--- Thread: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? (/showthread.php?tid=5944)
Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - sillious saurus - 06-15-2006
I am contemplating building a Lorica Segmentata and I guess I need either support to do it, or warnings to forget it. I have no experience with metal work, but I have a keen interest in building my own Lorica Segmentata. Is this madness? I guess formost is that I am having a hard time finding the steel (I am in Detroit and cant find steel, is that nuts?) Can somebody give me an idea of about how much that will cost? How about what I need to do to cut it, can it be done with snips, or do I need to get it CNC'd. Or maybe a breakdown of what I can expect to pay for the entire project, just to get an idea. I guess it is very daunting undertaking in just collecting the raw materials. I need sheet metal from wherever, leather from this guy, brass from over there, this particular funky tool--but MAN, does it sure sounds fun! Hopefully there is a kind soul who will read this and give me advice. I have read about everything I can find on the internet, and I have many of the patterns posted on the net as well, so I am good on that front. Love to hear some ideas.
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - Tarbicus - 06-15-2006
Matt Lukes is currently building a Corbridge C for me, so it's not a case of I can give advice on how to build one and should you do it? But, I certainly had fun poring through the options of what fittings to have, etc, as I think Matt did.
I highly recommend trying to get your hands on copies of Lorica Segmentata Volumes 1 & 2, by MC Bishop and MD Thomas. Perhaps a library nearby can get them? The sheer range of options is pretty great, and the one Matt is making for me will hopefully be fairly unique and very asymmetrical. Having copies of those references really did open up the options. It will have a mix of brass and copper rivets, different shaped tie hooks and fittings, and more including shoulder guards of different types.
Maybe Matt will see your post and advise.
You certainly can make your armor - richsc - 06-16-2006
Go to Matt Amt's Legio XX site for step by step instructions on all phases of making a lorica: patterns, measuring, tools, metals, leather, etc. As to finding the cold rolled steel sheets, look for an iron works and call to see if they sell 16/18 gauge cold rolled steel. You can mark that up and cut it with a hand jigsaw, among other things.
Legio XX Legionary Handbook
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 06-16-2006
Very useful is to get a punch to get the holes for rivets.
Like that:
![[Image: HandPunch.jpg]](http://zenstoves.net/Supplies/HandPunch.jpg)
You can buy the hinges made. See marketplace at RAT and look for Mat L. section.
segmentata - claudia crisis - 06-16-2006
I made my husbands Kalkriese.
All hinges & buckles individually made & all the decorative bosses too.
If I can do it (poor weak little female) I'm sure you big butch boys will manage it.
Just takes time.
Good Luck - you only learn from your mistakes - your 2nd one will be perfect.
Hilary
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - sillious saurus - 06-16-2006
Awesome! These were some things I needed to hear. I never thought about cutting sheet metal with a jigsaw. And a punch for the rivets too. Another thing that was kind of confusing is the patterns on the net:
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorA1.gif
they have a scale of inches at the top of the page where it looks like one inch is equal to about 3/4 of an inch. Any idea how I am supposed to work that out? I am not quite sure what the scale of inches is for, am I supposed to add a 1/4 of an inch to everything when when building? Also, I imagine my main question is how to fit it properly: If I am underzstanding from what I have read, you are supposed to make a mock up in cardboard, and tweek the size of the patterns via that method? I have a 46-48 inch chest, and I am assuming the patterns arent made to that size by defualt. OK thats it for now. I'm sure I'll have some more, but I really appreciate the help. I am new to reenacting and just want to make sure I dont waste my time, or make something people will snicker at. Uggh!
seggie - claudia crisis - 06-16-2006
You can see the stages to making mine on:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/kalkriese
although it is the Kalkriese one, not Corbridge, I did study the actual Corbridge remains first.
Definitely start with cardboard mock up, but allow for the fact that cardboard will bend easier than metal so the metal parts will have to be a smidgens bigger. Also, the original plates are not flat, but body shaped, so you will have to flex the collar plate a bit to make it hang right.
Another tip, dont rivet up right away - use little nut & bolts so you can test it before you hammer in any rivets that you may have to take out again.
Put it together bit by bit for the same reasons - you will probably have to fiddle a lot.
Good luck
Hilary
seggie again - claudia crisis - 06-16-2006
Dont forget - copper rivets not iron.
You can file out copper easier than iron - that's why the Romans used them too.
You can do it! - Neuraleanus - 06-16-2006
Id facere potes!Tools:
1. The hole punch has already been mentioned. The cheap Chinese version works fine. Two size holes are needed: 1/8 inch and 3/16 inch.
2. Something to cut the steel. The ideal instrument is the Beverly B1 shear. This is rather expensive though (about $600 USD). There is a cheap Chinese version, but I understand that it has issues.
3. To fold the steel edge on the bottom plates you need a pair of edge seamers. Glass pliers help as well.
Materials:
1. The plates are made from 18 gauge mild steel.
2. Sheet brass fro the hinges, lacing loops, and buckles.
3. Copper rivets: 1/8" round head and flat head, 3/16" round head.
4. For the rosettes you need a die so it might be easier to purchase these.
Tips:
1. As a previous poster said, make a cardboard mock-up first.
2. Lay out the holes in the plates with the plates layed-out flat. I curved the plates first on my seg, and while I managed to get it right, the measuring job was much more difficult.
3. Do not make the mistake of putting the rivets for the lacing loops through the internal leathers! A friend of mine did that. You wouldn't be able to move.
Re: seggie - sillious saurus - 06-16-2006
YES! Good Show! I need pictures.
Quote:You can see the stages to making mine on:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/kalkriese
although it is the Kalkriese one, not Corbridge, I did study the actual Corbridge remains first.
Definitely start with cardboard mock up, but allow for the fact that cardboard will bend easier than metal so the metal parts will have to be a smidgens bigger. Also, the original plates are not flat, but body shaped, so you will have to flex the collar plate a bit to make it hang right.
Another tip, dont rivet up right away - use little nut & bolts so you can test it before you hammer in any rivets that you may have to take out again.
Put it together bit by bit for the same reasons - you will probably have to fiddle a lot.
Good luck
Hilary
Re: You can do it! - sillious saurus - 06-16-2006
What are you thoughts on a post regarding the use of a jigsaw to cut? I most assuredly dont have $600 kicking about to spend on the Beverly B1. Yikes. Say do you have an idea on the cost of the steel for this project?
Quote:
Tools:
1. The hole punch has already been mentioned. The cheap Chinese version works fine. Two size holes are needed: 1/8 inch and 3/16 inch.
2. Something to cut the steel. The ideal instrument is the Beverly B1 shear. This is rather expensive though (about $600 USD). There is a cheap Chinese version, but I understand that it has issues.
3. To fold the steel edge on the bottom plates you need a pair of edge steamers. Glass pliers help as well.
Materials:
1. The plates are made from 18 gauge mild steel.
2. Sheet brass fro the hinges, lacing loops, and buckles.
3. Copper rivets: 1/8" round head and flat head, 3/16" round head.
4. For the rosettes you need a die so it might be easier to purchase these.
Tips:
1. As a previous poster said, make a cardboard mock-up first.
2. Lay out the holes in the plates with the plates layed-out flat. I curved the plates first on my seg, and while I managed to get it right, the measuring job was much more difficult.
3. Do not make the mistake of putting the rivets for the lacing loops through the internal leathers! A friend of mine did that. You wouldn't be able to move.
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - Tarbicus - 06-16-2006
For plate thickness and other hints you might want to read these threads:
link from old RAT
link from old RAT
If you're concerned about thinner plate not being tough enough I just bought a paper from British Library Direct that seems to prove through metal analysis that Roman armourers were capable of making plate that wasn't surpassed until the late 14th / early 15th C.
In defence of Rome: a metallographic investigation of Roman ferrous armour from Northern Britain, by Fulford, sim, Doig and painter.
Journal of Archaeological Science 32 (2005)
The rule seems to be thickest for the upper shoulder guards, thinnest for the girth hoops if you decide on multiple thicknesses.
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - Magnus - 06-16-2006
Hey Sillious,
Ok, first of all...YOU CAN DO THIS. I am by no means a craftsman, but I managed to build most of my own gear.
I'd estimate your total cost to be around $100, for rivets, leather, hinges (I bought mine...to heck with cutting those puppies out!), and of course, the sheet metal.
You dont need metal sheers to cut the steel out. A hand jigsaw will be fine, but make sure you use a lot of clamps and buy good, steel cutting blades and buy lots.
You'll need to adapt the patterns on Matt Amt's site to fit your own body. You'll need to make a complete cardboard or poster board mock-up. If you don't...forget making a seggie that will fit you.
Read Matt's site...then read it again. Find any diagrams and close up pictures of segmentata so it's a fresh image in your mind.
From there, start to source out and collect your materials...you'll need to figure out how much leather you'll need for the internal rigging (That's where the mock-up comes in handy), and you'll also need to figure out how many rivets to get. I'd recommend copper rivets, but brass are just as good. Then get the steel, and you can begin.
I remember when I had assembled my first shoulder guard unit and kind of "tried it on". It was one of the coolest moments.
And ask lots of quesitons! For months during and before construction I made Matt Amt sick of me...hahhaah! But it's better to ask than make a mistake or do something wrong.
So, to reiterate:
Tools:
Hand Jigsaw + good metal cutting blades
Drill with 1/8" bit and bigger for holes (again, you don't need a whitney punch).
Metal Files
Ball Peen or regular Hammer
Anvil
Black spray paint (to paint the inside of the plates).
Rivets...flat head and domed head.
Leather strapping of varrying thickness
Brass sheet for making hooks and eyes (Cor. B model), or buckle hinges (Cor. A model).
Brass sheet for making lacing loops.
PS - check Matt Amt's suppliers page, you can find a guy that makes the lobate hinges...it'll save you hours of work.
Washers - either make your own from brass sheet, or buy some. I actually prefer to make mine...I find they fit better.
I probably missed a few things, but that should get you started. Basically read Matt's site, and make a list of things you need.
Good luck, and come back often and let us know how you're doing.
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - Matthew Amt - 06-16-2006
Ave!
What they said. I made my first lorica on my bedroom floor.
Steel, brass, and rivets for a lorica may run only about $50, or less if you scrounge metal shelves from trash piles! (But then you have to get the paint off one side...)
However, it may really be worth finding a metal shop that will order you a piece of 18 gauge steel (half a sheet, 4x4 feet, is plenty, in fact 3x4 should be enough) and cut out some strips for you. You'll want 8 strips 48"x2-1/4" (for the girdle plates), and 4 or 5 strips 48"x2" (for the outer/lesser shoulder guards). Then all you have to cut out from the remaining chunk (or "drop" as the shop may call it) is the oddly-shaped collar and upper shoulder guard plates. Saves a ton of time. We had a shop cut a full sheet into enough strips for 4 cuirasses, and the total cost was only $100 including the metal. Hit the Yellow Pages and look for sheet metal shops--skip the ones that only do ductwork, they won't be able to cut anything that thick. Others won't normally deal with anything that *thin* but may be willing to special order the sheet and will have no trouble cutting it.
You can drill all the holes and don't really need a "Whitney" punch, but the cheap version is less than 20 bucks and you will never want to drill a hole again! Quieter, cleaner, quicker, safer. Every once in a while you may find a spot you can't reach with it, is all. Harbor Freight Tools. Oh, get a centerpunch of some sort (heck, or hammer and nail!) to mark the spot for each hole, whether you're punching or drilling.
I fold edges with nothing more than regular pliers and a hammer. It helps to grind the jaws smooth if you can, to leave fewer tool marks on the metal.
Patterns: Yeah, those on my site are supposed to be full size! Stupid computers... Print them and stick them on a copier and enlarge to 129 percent, I think. Check the scale with a ruler. Should work. Then adjust to fit you.
MAKE CARDBOARD MOCKUPS.
If you decide to make all your own hinges and fittings, make those FIRST. They are the hard parts. Don't bother buying any steel until you have the brass bits done, otherwise you may drop the whole project in despair and have wasted the money. Once you get the hinges and buckles all done, the rest is EASY by comparison. Even now, it takes me an hour to make one main hinge start to finish, so plan on spending a good week making brass stuff.
Some useful articles:
http://www.arador.com/articles/index.html
Particularly: http://www.arador.com/articles/18things.html
Go, go, go! The feeling of accomplishment is wonderful, and all your friends wearing Indian-made loricae will be jealous.
And keep asking questions!
Vale,
Matthew
Re: Lorica Segmentata: can I do it???? - sillious saurus - 06-16-2006
AWESOME. I can hear the voices in my head right now saying "I think I can, I think I can!" So brass first? OK, now...where do i find the brass? Ugggh! Would that be from a metal shop as well?
Quote:Ave!
What they said. I made my first lorica on my bedroom floor.
Steel, brass, and rivets for a lorica may run only about $50, or less if you scrounge metal shelves from trash piles! (But then you have to get the paint off one side...)
However, it may really be worth finding a metal shop that will order you a piece of 18 gauge steel (half a sheet, 4x4 feet, is plenty, in fact 3x4 should be enough) and cut out some strips for you. You'll want 8 strips 48"x2-1/4" (for the girdle plates), and 4 or 5 strips 48"x2" (for the outer/lesser shoulder guards). Then all you have to cut out from the remaining chunk (or "drop" as the shop may call it) is the oddly-shaped collar and upper shoulder guard plates. Saves a ton of time. We had a shop cut a full sheet into enough strips for 4 cuirasses, and the total cost was only $100 including the metal. Hit the Yellow Pages and look for sheet metal shops--skip the ones that only do ductwork, they won't be able to cut anything that thick. Others won't normally deal with anything that *thin* but may be willing to special order the sheet and will have no trouble cutting it.
You can drill all the holes and don't really need a "Whitney" punch, but the cheap version is less than 20 bucks and you will never want to drill a hole again! Quieter, cleaner, quicker, safer. Every once in a while you may find a spot you can't reach with it, is all. Harbor Freight Tools. Oh, get a centerpunch of some sort (heck, or hammer and nail!) to mark the spot for each hole, whether you're punching or drilling.
I fold edges with nothing more than regular pliers and a hammer. It helps to grind the jaws smooth if you can, to leave fewer tool marks on the metal.
Patterns: Yeah, those on my site are supposed to be full size! Stupid computers... Print them and stick them on a copier and enlarge to 129 percent, I think. Check the scale with a ruler. Should work. Then adjust to fit you.
MAKE CARDBOARD MOCKUPS.
If you decide to make all your own hinges and fittings, make those FIRST. They are the hard parts. Don't bother buying any steel until you have the brass bits done, otherwise you may drop the whole project in despair and have wasted the money. Once you get the hinges and buckles all done, the rest is EASY by comparison. Even now, it takes me an hour to make one main hinge start to finish, so plan on spending a good week making brass stuff.
Some useful articles:
http://www.arador.com/articles/index.html
Particularly: http://www.arador.com/articles/18things.html
Go, go, go! The feeling of accomplishment is wonderful, and all your friends wearing Indian-made loricae will be jealous.
And keep asking questions!
Vale,
Matthew