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+--- Thread: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin (/showthread.php?tid=5916)
For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - sseverus - 06-12-2006
Hello roman friends,
as an ancient coin collector, I would like to show you this threat:
http://www.beastcoins.com/Topical/VLPP/VLPP.htm
It is nice to see a pannonian cap on the head of Constantine the great!!!
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - aitor iriarte - 06-12-2006
Wow, many thanks, Nico!
Do you know of more coins like that?
hock: Aitor
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - sseverus - 06-12-2006
I thought you would like that!!!!!
For the moment, it is the only known specimen.
Maybe in the future, more coins will show up.
Almost each day, unlisted coins are being discovered.
Below are some pics of an unlisted Constantine coin that i bought for some days. Take a look at his helmet
hock: .
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - sseverus - 06-12-2006
the reverse: showing two captives below a military standard
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - aitor iriarte - 06-12-2006
MMhhh,
I've returned from looking to your link, totally amazed of the wide series of late ridge helmets portraited on the coins and this last one is a crude return. A too crude one... :?
I am not an expert in numismatics but even if I can accept the first coin, this second one looks weird. What is written on the exergo?
Aitor
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - Robert Vermaat - 06-12-2006
Aaah, VERY interesting coins!! See my question here: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... &start=180
VERY controversial - FlaviusCrispus - 06-12-2006
Avete, amici!
The coin depicted in the first image, depicting Constantine wearing a pannonian cap, is VERY constroversial. Most of the experts who have looked at an image or the coin itself have concluded it is either a clever modern forgery, or another Constantinian type re-engraved to create the "cap" out of a helmet, intended as something of a prank. The one important exception is Curtis Clay of Harlan J. Berk, who is one of the top names in the field, who is convinced it is genuine. In any case, there is only a single known "Pannonian cap" coin vs. many thousands of examples known depicting other bust types, including various helmets, diadems, laurel wreaths, etc.
Some of the helmeted busts depicted on Constantinian coins have clearly "archaic" forms of headgear, such as the attic helmet seen above, while other helmets closely resemble bejeweled or decorated late Roman "ridge" helmets.
I'm assembling a database of Roman coin images that depict types showing military hardware. In addition to a variety of helmets, you can find examples of muscle cuirasses, scale armor, chain mail, and even the lorica segmentata! In some cases, the armor/helmets are anachronistic, but in others they to appear to depict actual contemporary wear. I'll post a link as soon as I get the page up.
BTW, Aitor, oddly enough, it is the first coin which is decidedly "weird," while the second is entirely normal and unexceptional. The legend in the exergue of the reverse of the second piece (Attic helmeted bust obverse) is AQP, which is the mintmark for Aquileia the P stands for "prima," or the first officina, or workshop of the mint).
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - aitor iriarte - 06-13-2006
Aquileia, thanks David!
Aitor
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - Crispvs - 06-19-2006
The helmet on the second coin looks like an attempt to depict a Guisborough type helmet to me, although I note that there seem to be feather tubes shown as well, which I have never seen on a post 1st century AD helmet.
Crispvs
Re: VERY controversial - semperinvicto - 10-29-2006
Quote:Avete, amici!
Most of the experts who have looked at an image or the coin itself have concluded it is either a clever modern forgery, or another Constantinian type re-engraved to create the "cap" out of a helmet, intended as something of a prank. The one important exception is Curtis Clay of Harlan J. Berk, who is one of the top names in the field, who is convinced it is genuine.
Well, it'd help to know the list of the "most" experts.
David Sear authenticated it, BTW.
The owner of the coin maintains a page dedicated to it, which includes the pro and con sides of the debate:
http://www.beastcoins.com/Topical/VLPP/ ... lenges.htm
Re: VERY controversial - IMP GALLIENVS AVG - 10-29-2006
Quote:FlaviusCrispus:26eka6t7 Wrote:Avete, amici!
Most of the experts who have looked at an image or the coin itself have concluded it is either a clever modern forgery, or another Constantinian type re-engraved to create the "cap" out of a helmet, intended as something of a prank. The one important exception is Curtis Clay of Harlan J. Berk, who is one of the top names in the field, who is convinced it is genuine.
Well, it'd help to know the list of the "most" experts.
David Sear authenticated it, BTW.
The owner of the coin maintains a page dedicated to it, which includes the pro and con sides of the debate:
http://www.beastcoins.com/Topical/VLPP/ ... lenges.htm
Abbas Cucaniensis / Greg K.
That is a GORGEOUS Probus, I'm gonna say, aureus? I love the plume (your avatar).
Andrew
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - Lothia - 10-30-2006
Ave Civitas,
I have a hat question. Where does the term Pannonian cap come from. I know where Pannonia is, but I guess I am asking, was the Pannonian cap indicative of the caps worn along the Danube?
Thanks,
Tom
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - aitor iriarte - 10-30-2006
It comes from Vegetius, Tom. I have no time now to search for the exact quote, but if somebody else doesn't do it first
wink: !Aitor
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - Robert Vermaat - 10-30-2006
Quote: I have a hat question. Where does the term Pannonian cap come from. I know where Pannonia is, but I guess I am asking, was the Pannonian cap indicative of the caps worn along the Danube?
It's from Vegetius, Epitoma Rei Militari, I.20:
Quote: It remained the custom until nearer the present time that all soldiers were associated with the 'Pannonian' pilleus of skins.
Usque ad praesentem prope aetatem consuetudo permansit, ut omnes milites pilleis, quos Pannonicos uocabant, ex pellibus uterentur; quod propterea seruabatur, ne grauis galea uideretur in proelio homini, qui gestabat aliquid semper in capite.
Re: For the late romans under us: pannonian hat on coin - aitor iriarte - 10-30-2006
Robert, as sharp as always!
Aitor