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+--- Thread: Posts/forts on the Rhine (/showthread.php?tid=5556)
Posts/forts on the Rhine - tlclark - 05-01-2006
Thinking about the stelae from the Rhineland and their unique tunic pleats and I need a few questions answered.
Who were these guys? Where are they coming from? Are they Italians or are they from somewhere else?
What were the major deployments on the Rhine in the first century and when did they happen?
Basically I'm wondering if we have lots of Eastern mediterranean troops moved to Germany. If so, it would explain a lot about the artwork we are seeing.
Thanks.
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - tlclark - 05-01-2006
Ok, if this can be trusted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine#Hist ... _Relevance
Then there were gallatians along the Rhine.
Suddenly things are making sense!
Travis
eastern soldiers - Graham Sumner - 05-02-2006
Hi Travis
One of the most famous of eastern soldiers found amongst the Rhineland tombstones is the Syrian, Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera. According to Jewish literature a soldier called Pantera was allegedly the illegitimate father of J.C. no less! Until this tombstone was found the name Pantera was otherwise unknown and the story simply dismissed as anti-Christian propaganda.
An otherwise more down to earth observation this tombstone shows an eastern archer but in the short tunic worn by all the other soldiers in this group of tombstones.
Graham.
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - hansvl - 05-02-2006
Hi Travis,
You can be sure that in the early first century AD the vast majority of the recruits for the legions still came from towns in the Italian peninsula. This is also true for the legions on the Rhine frontier. By the late first century AD the recruitment for the legions became more and more a local/regional matter. But of course there was a presence of 'foreign' troops. Most of them were auxilia. A few of them on the Rhine frontier came from the eastern provinces.
For legionary recruitment read:
G. Forni, Il reclutamento delle legioni da Augusto a Diocleziano (Roma, 1953)
and
JC Mann, Legionary recruitment and veteran settlement during the Principate (Londen, 1983)
Hans
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - Uwe Bahr - 05-02-2006
Ave Travis,
I can only agree with Hansvl about the Roman troops here in Germania Inferior. Myself I live only 5 minutes away (by foot) from the place where in 1st century AD was the location of Asciburgium, a castellum that was garrisoned by legionary detachments as well as by Auxiliary infantry and cavalry and that was abandoned after the Batavian revolt. One of its garrisons was the Cohors Silaucensium, an Infantry cohort originally raised in Seleucia Piera, and I think, these Syrians must have felt very displaced at the cold lower Rhine.
You can see a site with further going information about the limes of Germania inferior and its troops here:
[url:2gm41ho3]http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/karten/limes1.htm[/url]
[url:2gm41ho3]http://www.novaroma.de/nr/provincia/historia/exercitus-ger1.htm[/url]
May-be, I still have access to a book that lists all the Auxiliary troops in this province, at least their designations inform about their origins.
Greets - Uwe
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - tlclark - 05-04-2006
Graham, Hans and Uwe
Thanks all for the info. Uwe, thanks especially for the website.
So it seems that we have easterners there, but not a majority.
The rhineland stelae seem to indicate a very heavy stylistic influence.
I think that the snappy tunic pleats are just a stylization of the more natural drapery we see on examples form the Puteoli relief. This looks a lot like Palmyrene and other stuff. Why the heavy (presumed) eastern influence if the troops are predominantly Italian?
Are most of these stelae Auxilliaries?
Travis
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - Praefectusclassis - 05-05-2006
Hi Travis,
I think the problem may well be that you need accurate dating of these tombstones to establish the order in which they were sculpted and find out which influences which other one. There are regional differences in quality and sculpture as well, with very good quality from the Mainz region and much more variation in quality (for instance) in Germania Inferior.
Most of the information you'd need is in the Corpus Signorum Imperii Germani. The Upper and Lower Germany volumes have been published and are often referred to in the Imagebase.
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - Nathan Ross - 05-05-2006
Quote:Ok, if this can be trusted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine#Hist ... _Relevance
Then there were gallatians along the Rhine.
Suddenly things are making sense!
It's a big if! - and I think in this case the writer of the page might have confused the Legion XXI Rapax based on the Rhine in the later first century with Legion XXII Deiotariana, originally raised by the king of Galatia in the late republican period and absorbed into the Augustan army. Deiotariana was, I believe, based for most of its existence in Egypt, whereas Rapax had no eastern connections.
One other possibility, aside from auxiliaries or 'eastern' legionaries, might be the movement of legion vexillations to eastern campaigns. I'm not sure if any of the Rhine legions were used in this way, but Legion XV Apollinaris was moved from Carnuntum on the Danube in the 60s AD to Syria and then Judea, returning in the following decade - Carnuntum being the site of the earliest known military mithraeum, it is believed that the soldiers of Apollinaris may have brought certain 'eastern' practices back home with them. If this kind of cultural cross-pollination spread more widely, then perhaps Palmyrene artistic influences might have been felt on the Rhine. (Or perhaps it was just fashionable orientalism? :lol: )
- Nathan
Re: Posts/forts on the Rhine - tlclark - 05-06-2006
Nathan,
Well the supposed 'eastern' origins of the Mithraeum is another issue. For being eastern there are far more in the west.
The question is did styles move with legions. It makes sense if the legion IS eastern, but if we are arguing they picked up eastern styles and/or maybe an eastern stone mason along the way, that becomes far more tennuous.
Thanks.
Travis