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+--- Thread: Padded Armour (/showthread.php?tid=3698)
Re: Padded Armour - John M McDermott - 03-01-2006
Yes, that's the object. This does not replace the need for a subarmalis, however. They compliment one another.
I don't know how thick it is. I'll have to measure it tonight.
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 03-01-2006
John,
How thick and stiff is the rawhide? Are there ways to compensate for this?
I imagine the doubling works like this
chain mail/raw hide/ padding
with the padding against the interior, right?
the reason I am asking is to inquire if rawhide might be suitable for the construction of a subarmalis or musculata.
Travis
Re: Padded Armour - John M McDermott - 03-01-2006
Actually, I had not thought of the padding, but it is not a bad idea. The rawhide is absolutely stiff, but not brittle. You form it by soaking it in hot water, then let it dry.
Re: Padded Armour - Tarbicus - 03-01-2006
Quote:the reason I am asking is to inquire if rawhide might be suitable for the construction of a subarmalis or musculata.Travis, did a lightbulb just suddenly appear above your head?
I just stabbed a 2mm thick piece of rawhide repeatedly with a sharp heavy kitchen knife, and no penetration at all....Rawhide is also completely unsightly in its raw form. Painting it would make it look so much better :wink:
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 03-01-2006
Quote:tlclark:3dt58qlj Wrote:the reason I am asking is to inquire if rawhide might be suitable for the construction of a subarmalis or musculata.Travis, did a lightbulb just suddenly appear above your head?
Exactly! I know rawhide can be molded. Can it be molded to the detail we see in the artwork? I just don't know.
Quote:
Rawhide is also completely unsightly in its raw form. Painting it would make it look so much better :wink:
Or even better, covered in linen and backed with padding.
My only experience with rawhide is that it is very stiff and hard. I made a drum from rawhide once and cut my hands on an edge...vicious stuff!
Suppose we had a layer of rawhide behind the musculata or the subarmalis?
The thicker stuff is hard as a rock when it dries, but the thinner stuff is fairly flexible as I remember.
How well does it hold up? Could it be molded to make the kind of detail we see in a musculata?
These are things I would like to know.
Re: Padded Armour - Theodosius the Great - 03-01-2006
Whoa, wait a second, I have a question about rawhide :
Quote:The rawhide is absolutely stiff, but not brittle. You form it by soaking it in hot water, then let it dry.
Quote:Rawhide is also completely unsightly in its raw form
Doesn't Rawhide also deteriorate over time, especially if it's constantly saturated in human sweat ? Plus, your body heat may deform its shape.
I'm not so sure it's a good material to use for a subarmalis, Travis. It might be better to do more research before making a decision on this...
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 03-01-2006
Quote:Actually, I had not thought of the padding, but it is not a bad idea. The rawhide is absolutely stiff, but not brittle. You form it by soaking it in hot water, then let it dry.
Thanks.
If the doubling is stiff would it chafe, catch too much? Or does it 'float' above you kinda like football shoulder pads do?
Also, there are grades of rawhide if I'm not mistaken, and some of the thinner stuff is more flexible, less like the rock-hard dog bones and more like the nylon they make football/motorcylce armor out of.
All of this is really foggy for me, working from memories of working with rawhide as a boyscout decades ago.
Please post any and all insights you work out on this.
Travis
Re: Padded Armour - John M McDermott - 03-01-2006
I'm still experimenting with the rawhide, so I don't have all the answers. When use in shields, it imparts a strength beyond expectations. Slow motion photos show rawhide absorbing blows and bending, flexing and dissipating the energy.
Re: Padded Armour - Tarbicus - 03-01-2006
Quote:Also, there are grades of rawhide if I'm not mistaken, and some of the thinner stuff is more flexible,The stuff I stabbed definitely has some flexibility to it.
Re: Padded Armour - tlclark - 03-01-2006
Quote:I'm still experimenting with the rawhide, so I don't have all the answers. When use in shields, it imparts a strength beyond expectations. Slow motion photos show rawhide absorbing blows and bending, flexing and dissipating the energy.
Ok, thanks. Cool. Sounds like fiberglass!
So something to consider for a later project, for the moment I think I will stick to my all cloth plans, but keep us informed!
Re: Padded Armour - Flavius Promotus - 03-02-2006
Quote:Doesn't Rawhide also deteriorate over time, especially if it's constantly saturated in human sweat ? Plus, your body heat may deform its shape.
I'm not so sure it's a good material to use for a subarmalis, Travis. It might be better to do more research before making a decision on this...
Same qualms here :?
I would not use it for the subarmalis, but for the musculata? maybe?
on the fringes - drsrob - 03-02-2006
About the question how fringer are attached to the pteryges. They look like the fringed end of a strip of wool of linnen, yet on statues the binding seems to run along the fringed edge as well.
I thinks this might be explained. The fringed pteryges first appeared on Macedonian armour during the mid-4th century BC. It is to be expected that they were modified over time.
At first the fringes might have been simply woven in a single layer an the ends fringed. On the "Alexander" Sarcophag we see only two crosslines near the fringes and no edging.
Later they then were lined and/or edged and the fringe was either left off ar added seperately as a decoration. The fringe then does not imply any extra layers, but was simply attached to the bottom of the pteryges.
Re: Padded Armour - adamparsons - 03-02-2006
With regard to rawhides durability and mouldability. It can be moulded into quite complex designs even the thicker stuff (2mm). I have seen little faces made from it (and leather) from Greece. I have also used it quite a lot myself and would be confident of getting a quite high level of detail from it. (I want to make the Dura Europos shields but its so damn expensive for a sheet over here).
As for its durability, it will last as long as a natural veg tan leather which is one of your other organic options for a musculata. I have seen many chrome tanned and/or coated leather musculatas and it lasts ages but is unauthentic as a material. You can obviously preserve natural leather with oil, but then again you can do that with hide too.
Sue Winterbottom (durham conservator) told me that some of the armour she had looked at had a crusty orange deposit where the leathers were and she suspected that was down to an oil preservation (rather than just waterproofing) of the hide/leather used, and not a more conventional tanning process. I think preserving with oil leaves a messy type of material though, and may not harden enough for moulding, but you could still mould and shape the hide and cover in oil after wards? Maybe someone should try waterproofing some hide?
Just my two pence?
Adam
Re: Padded Armour - Caballo - 03-02-2006
A thought looking at the wonderful plans by Jim , Tarbicus et al.
Are we making the design too complicated in making it from one piece? It would also be tough to find a cow that big.....
Wouldn't a simpler solution be to have several layers of the same design worn on top of each other?
Great discussion, btw. Just thought I'd quote Nathan Ross's opening lines at the thread's beginning "Perhaps this is one of these things that's been discussed to death back in the mists of time and discarded, but... "
14 pages later, the discussion is still going strong!!
D
Re: Padded Armour - adamparsons - 03-02-2006
I completly agree with that Paul. It is what I was also trying to show in my section drawing further up the thread (P13)- that some of the layers can be seperate and stitched together- especially around the pteruges, and even if you use travis's linen/felt/linen core/felt/linen idea, there is not nessessarily and need for all the layers (i.e linen core) to run up into the main body, some could stop at a seam above the waist where the pteruges start. Just leaving multiple layers of felt encased in linen outers.
Ok we are assuming that it is linen/felt and not leather as you seem to suggest but the point you make is still very valid which ever material you believe was used. You still run into issues of needing to use larger looms and material wastage, when there is no purpose, when discussing linen.
Adam
I'm also not fully convinced of any material for musculata other that cupric-alloys, but there are some very well put arguments out there and I'm fascinated by the debate and am willing to alter my viewpoint with the evidenc epresented! Great stuff guys