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Greaves of Hair - Johnny Shumate - 08-10-2005
Diodorus described the Celt-Iberians wearing "greaves of hair". Any idea what these looked like?
Johnny
Re: Greaves of Hair - Carlton Bach - 08-11-2005
Purely speculative, but could he be talking about fibre armour? Armour woven from coconut fibres was used in Polynesia into the 19th century, and I could imagine horsehair being equally useful for the purpose. It's of limited use against spears and stabbing weapons, but good against cuts and bludgeoning impact, and it is light and somewhat flexible. I could see it used to protect the legs, where your main concern would be secondary injuries.
Re: Greaves of Hair - Anonymous - 08-11-2005
In "Warfare in the Classical World" (John Warry - '80s (page 165)) is written:
...To emphasise their fearsome looks, they often coated their hair with clay and lime and combed it into stiff pikes.
I think this is what Diodorus means, but I can be wrong.
Re: Greaves of Hair - Tarbicus - 08-11-2005
Man, that's one pair of hairy legs. I dread to have seen their armpits :wink:
Sinew? - Nathan Ross - 08-11-2005
Might 'hair' in this case be a reference to the sinew armour commonly used by Iberian warriors? Possibly a case of mistranslation - one fibrous animal-product to another?
Re: Greaves of Hair - Anonymous - 08-12-2005
I think he meant the hair on their heads :wink: Although according the pictures/drawings...
Re: Greaves of Hair - Daniel S Peterson - 09-28-2005
The account was probably referring to "felt" which is made of compressed hair/fur fibers held together by a binding agent. When quite thick, it makes an excellent greave, and far more comfortable than metal ones.
Depictions of Mycenenean, and other ancient warrior show what appear to be "felt" greaves as well.
Re: Greaves of Hair - Dan Howard - 10-11-2005
Quote:Depictions of Mycenenean, and other ancient warrior show what appear to be "felt" greaves as well.The most common interpretation of Mykenaian greaves is layered linen like their linothorax, not felt.
Re: Greaves of Hair - Daniel S Peterson - 10-12-2005
Really? I don't recall Myceneans wearing this classical Greek garment, though linen armor could have existed as it is documented in Egypt and elewhere. I think in the artwork I remember, they wear helmets, kilts, light colored greaves and carry large body shields.
I once experimented with thick felt under Roman metal greaves, and discovered that the felt alone provides a very comfortable and reasonably protective armor.
Felt is made of compressed animal hairs. There can be virtually no question this is what is being discussed.
Dan
Re: Greaves of Hair - Dan Howard - 10-12-2005
So why does Homer use the word LINOTHOREX on two occasions? Both parts of this word can be traced back to the Linear B tablets. LINARI means flax and THORAX refers to body armour.
I agree that the greaves of hair attributed to the Celts is probably felt. I disagree that there is any evidence to suggest that the Mykenaians used felt greaves.
Re: Greaves of Hair - FAVENTIANVS - 10-13-2005
Didn't Homer wrote it around the 8th century bC?
Re: Greaves of Hair - Dan Howard - 10-13-2005
And it has been demonstrated that many elements of his work can be traced back many centuries earlier. In any case 8th century is not the "Classical" period. The linothorax was worn long before the classical hoplite adopted it.
Re: Greaves of Hair - Daniel S Peterson - 10-13-2005
One of the most interesting things is that Homer mentions the archaic boars tusk helmet of Mycenean era, and the Achilles legend could refer to him wearing a Dendra Panalopy type bronze armor in which one of the only "exposed" area is behind the greaves, and heel. It is widely believed, and Homer may actually say, that it is built on a thick felt cap base. Indeed, the heavy felt pylos cap may have been wide used as a cheap head protection in that time. But is does seem felt was widely known and used by warriors of that time, and body armor as well, could have easily been made from it.
I do not believe Homer described anyone wearing layered linen cuirasses of the familiar, classical Greek style however. This could be a later translation, or pehaps he used that same name for the more archaic versions of linen armor we know were used in the bronze age . The linen armor worn by the possibly Mycenean "Sea Peoples" depicted on Egyptian stele seem to look just like the Egyptian, though some seem to be wearing a Dendra-like bronze cuirass without the lower plates that would be awkward for an infantryman.
Dan
Re: Greaves of Hair - Dan Howard - 10-13-2005
Quote:I do not believe Homer described anyone wearing layered linen cuirasses of the familiar, classical Greek styl however.
I didn't say he describes "layered linen cuirasses of the familiar, classical Greek style." I said he used the word LINOTHOREX twice and that this word can be traced back to the Linear B tablets.
ἀλλὰ πολὺ μείων ὀλίγος μὲν ἔην λινοθώρηξ [2.529]
"but far slighter. He was a small man wearing a linothorax."
τῶν ἦρχ' Ἄδρηστός τε καὶ Ἄμφιος λινοθώρηξ [2.830]
"these were led by Adrestos and Amphios wearing linothorax"
It is not an error in translation. It is the exact same word.
There is also the fragment of layered linen found in a grave shaft at Mycenae.
It is fairly certain that the Mykenaians wore armour made from linen. It is unlikely that they resembled the classical hoplite cuirass. Homer uses the word PILOS which can mean felt. The word is used to describe the lining of the boar's tusk helm [10.265] This is the only time the word is used in the entire book. There is nothing to suggest that felt was used as a standalone armour.
Re: Greaves of Hair - hoplite14gr - 10-13-2005
Minor correction:
PILOS means cup or hat although cup is more accurate.
Felt translates to Greek as EREA ot TSOCHA
I feel that fabrick protection was linen and Dan is right on that.
The campaigning period in the Meditteranean was usually from March to September. I think felt type armor might be more the case in Northern Europe. It is extemely uncomfortable to have thick wool upon you in Greece, Italy or Southern Spain during the summer. And I speak from personal experience.
Our friend TNarcher who started the post said grieves of hair.
Diodorus being a Greek would say that the Iberians "EFERON KNIMIDES ERIOY " that might just as well mean wollen socks in ancient and modern Greek. Depending on the context ERION is either wool or felt.
And KNIMIS is not only grieve again depending on the context.
Can someone quote the original reference?
Kind regards
Stefanos