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+--- Thread: Buttons etc (/showthread.php?tid=3450)
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Buttons etc - Caballo - 06-03-2005
A question- I am presently finishing off a paenula and a subarmalis. Other than brooches, what did Romans use for fastening cloth/ leather?
Buttons (presumably horn? Two or four hole?)?
Toggles as in a duffel coat?
Leather thongs?
Really appreciate your thoughts.
Regards
Paulus
Re: Buttons etc - Carlton Bach - 06-03-2005
The Camomile Street soldier's paenula shows toggles and disclike 'buttons'. Since any paint that it once had is gone we can only speculate about holes, but I suspect none. Buttons are a bit of an 'issue' - some claim outright there were none, and I have yet to see any finds that 100% convince me. But then, the technology is so b***y simple...
I'd start with making fabric-based buttons. That would explain the disclike structure and the dearth of finds.
Also, keep in mind loops for passing a pin or brooch through (no, you don't have to poke the needle through the fabric every time) and simple ribbon extensions of the cloth that are tied together. And some paenulae may not have had fastenings and simply have been sewn up. I made mine like that and it works well.
Buttons etc. - Crispvs - 06-13-2005
I used to fasten my paenula with toggles but after looking closely at a lot of photos of tombstones I became convinced that a lot of paenulae were probably sewn together at the front rather than held with fasteners, leaving a long split below the sewn-up portion. Some paenulae were certainly fastened with buttons or toggles but a lot of depictions on stelae show no sign of fastenings, suggesting many were sewn, rather than buttoned, together. Accordingly I took the toggles off mine and sewed it up. This means that I cannot put it on whilst wearing my helmet, as I could before, so therefore if I need to wear both I put on first cloak then helmet, but then again, I never have a problem with fastenings coming undone or coming off and the cloak itself seems warmer. 8)
Crispvs
Buttons - Peroni - 07-22-2005
I was recently in the Grosvenor Museum, Chester (UK) and there is a small find there which cannot be anything other than a button fastener.
I have a photo of it which I shall post as soon as I can find it.
Regards,
Chester "Button" - Peroni - 07-28-2005
Salvete,
Here is the toggle/button from the Grosvenor museum at Chester.
I see no reason why it wouldn't be used to fasten a paenula as per the Camomile street soldier depiction. Or, why disc shaped terminals on such items like the botton and loop fittings for British/Celtic belts wouldn't be utilised.
Regards,
[url:2ws7wtr1]http://photobucket.com/albums/b242/peronis/?action=view¤t=button.jpg[/url]
Toggle - Caballo - 07-28-2005
Salvete,
Peronis, many thanks. That would make huge sense. The caption is also interesting as this would work well with a leather subarmalis. Now to find someone who makes them- I recall Nodge Nolan has a similar (though not identical ) one.
Cheers
Paulus
Buttons - Peroni - 07-28-2005
Salve Paulus,
Indeed Nodge does make such things. He does single and double-domed fittings as well as doughnut shaped ones too. I seem to recall that he also does some really beautiful enamelled ones as well.
"The Hoard" used to do button/loop fasteners too, but their catalogue has changed a lot recently.
Regards,
Re: Buttons etc - aitor iriarte - 08-03-2005
Paulus,
And what do you think it would be at the other side to receive the toggle/button on a subarmalis? A simple leather loop?
Aitor
Buttons - Peroni - 08-04-2005
I think it could be even simpler than a loop. What about just a hole cut or punched into the leather of the subarmalis?
regards,
Re: Buttons etc - aitor iriarte - 08-04-2005
Adrian,
I had discarded that possibility beforehand just because it had a 'too modern look' to my mind but that is not exactly scientific... :?
More suggestions?
Aitor
Button hole - Peroni - 08-04-2005
Aitor, it just seemed to me to be the most simple method.
If you look at some of the finds of leather satchels for example, they have a similar button and hole closure. It certainly involves less technology. It seems to me though, that if you had this type of fastening under your armour it would be a little uncomfortable to say the least!
Like having stones in there! :?
Regards,
Re: Buttons etc - aitor iriarte - 08-04-2005
Dead right, Adrian!
My first idea went on cords and eyelets (too much Ben-Hur! :roll: ) but perhaps straps and buckles would be the most sensible solution for the subarmalis...
What do you think about that?
Aitor
Buttons - Peroni - 08-05-2005
I have seen quite a few reconstructions of subarmali with buckles and straps to fasten them. It seems to work very well.
My subarmalis laces up, like a boot, from top to bottom. This way the tied end is not inside my armour.
Regards,
Re: Buttons etc - aitor iriarte - 08-05-2005
Adrian,
How do you have made the eyelets for the lacing :?:
Aitor
Re: Buttons etc - caiusbeerquitius - 08-05-2005
I suggest the same closing mechanism as for the gladiator textile armor.