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+--- Thread: Roman Military Clothing (3) (/showthread.php?tid=3425)
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Carlton Bach - 09-13-2005
Well, I finally got mine (d***n amazon.de, I had it on order and had to buy it at the shop in the end). I have to admit the armour on the Ravenna Patrikios' officer had me do a double-take. Would something like this have any practical utility?
@Conal, I think the papal guard at the time was less than official (the popes weren't supposed to have armed followers and more than the Patriarchs of Alexandria, but they needed them, so...), and certainly not as well funded as the imperial guards. The current Vatican is very wealthy, but that wasn't always the case.
Another thing that had me wondering was B3, the flammoularios - how does that armour work? Is it iron? The upper arm guards, too? Is there evidence about the surface treatment? It looks strange to me to go through the trouble of making an iron muscle cuirass and them not doing anything with it. It looks positively utilitarian.
The shields of the 6th century guards also look interesting. Is there evidence for the sculpted metal look depicted? The gemstones? I know they were painted like that, but so were a lot of other things. Do we have finds or surviving items?
I'm greatly impressed by the clothing and decor, and expecially the 'riding coats', and I would have loved to read more about cloth weave, weight, and sewing techniques. And yes, I want a suit like the Hun has.
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Graham Sumner - 09-15-2005
Hello Carlton and Conal
Raffaele D'Amato the author of Roman Military Clothing 3 has asked me to post the following which he hopes will answer some if not all of your questions. Graham.
Dear all
I will put some light on Your questions.
For Conal : The man with the Pectoraris (this is the name of the chest armour in leather) is copied from an original sculpture found in Ravenna representing the bodyguard of the Exarch. The present location of it is now unknown but luckily for us Hottenroth copied it in its original colour because at the end of XIX century it was still in Ravenna.
Graham has used the original sculpture redrawn by Hottenroth as his original source ; the garments have been reconstructed from Egyptian textiles as well as the Campagi, the helmet from specimens from the Black Sea and the Netherlands. The leather garment is mentioned by Iohannes Lydus as the ‘Saraka’, used by soldiers in time of peace.
Saraka is the word from which originated the italian word “casaccaâ€ÂÂ
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Robert Vermaat - 09-15-2005
Quote:Lack of space in the current publication meant that many sources could not be included however Graham and already preparing a new larger book, which hopefully will cover many of the things left out, and I know that there is much more to say.Now that is great news!!
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Theodosius the Great - 09-15-2005
Indeed !
I take it that it won't be released via Osprey ?
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Conal - 09-15-2005
Thanks Graham, much appreciated
The bestest of news ref bigger book .... dont make us wait too long !!!! :?
Re: Book - Robert Vermaat - 09-15-2005
Quote:I just loved the Hun, the fancy tunics and the long sleeved coat both of which reinforced by preference for late stuff !I liked the Hun too, but maybe he was a bit too Mongoloid? The decorated tunics were great though, I liked them very much. I've bought some of these eagle-fibula to use on my paenula (which I intend to decorate now).
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - NightHunter24 - 09-15-2005
Damn!
Now I'm gonna have to get my hands this Osprey book!... :lol:
ROMAN MILITARY CLOTHING III - MARCENTIUS - 09-15-2005
Dear All,
I have just to amend the fact that the Season mosaics is in Argo and not in Corinth museum. I had not time to rectify it before that Graham sent my mail.
As anticipated by him, we are preparing a source book. For source book I mean the showing of all the connexions between archaeology, art and literary sources.
About the Hun, believe me, they were worst than the type realized by Graham. Sinesius, Ammianus and Priscus let us clear description. Most interesting is the work of Sidonius about the Huns ravaging the Gauls after the time of Attila.
The "cicala" fibula, as the most part of the Equipment of the Hun is from Gaulish graves.
I hope in the future to have the time to prepare a book about the Aetius and Aegidius army, because of the many ethnies involved. What is one of the most interesting characters of the Late Western Roman Army is the incredible puzzling of people, using Romano-Germanic-Steppe equipment at the same time.
Best
Raffaele D'Amato
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Duncan Head - 11-12-2005
The Argos Seasons soldier is online at http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21104m/00/lk04m03a.jpg
cheers,
Duncan
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - FAVENTIANVS - 11-13-2005
Raffaele, what do you thing about Mario Bussagli's ATILA?
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Theodosius the Great - 04-09-2007
I'm very interested in the helmets on plates A and G. Specifically, I'm looking at figure A2 and G3. These look similar to the familiar Intercissa helmets. Is there evidence for these helmets as they appear in the book ?
I remember discussing evidence for crests on some LR helmets and that Mithras attached one to his. But the brow plate on figure A2 looks reminiscent of the classic Attic style. And I'm curious what the source is for the general shape of the helmet on figure G3 (the Senator).
I know the book is addressing military clothing and hence the lack of citation for the armor and helmets. But will the armor and equipment be addressed in an upcoming book ?
~Theo
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Virilis - 04-09-2007
Theo, I have been wondering about the same questions. Could it be the "Richborough helmet" which has been the basis of these reconstructions?
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Theodosius the Great - 04-09-2007
Virilis,
It certainly appears to be so ! The brow plate and brass rim on the upper cheek pieces are visible on the diagram.
The only discrepancy I detect between your diagram and Graham's painting is the neck guard. Graham's neck guard is way oversized but I suspect this is an error on his part.
Thank you for posting it
~Theo
Re: Roman Military Clothing (3) - Robert Vermaat - 04-09-2007
Yes, A2 is based on the Richborough I, Graham told me so. I had not noticed the big neckguard before!
G3 is an altogether different helmet.
Helmets - Graham Sumner - 04-09-2007
Theo wrote:
Quote:I'm very interested in the helmets on plates A and G. Specifically, I'm looking at figure A2 and G3. These look similar to the familiar Intercissa helmets. Is there evidence for these helmets as they appear in the book ?
Hello Theo
Yes there is evidence. A2 is based on the mosaic from Santa Maria Maggiore, Richborough 1 although this is a very fragmentary helmet and another helmet which I am sure Robert is familiar with as it comes from his part of the world. G3 is based on one from Bulgaria and I can send you details of that via your email.
Quote:The only discrepancy I detect between your diagram and Graham's painting is the neck guard. Graham's neck guard is way oversized but I suspect this is an error on his part.
An error! Never!
wink: Quote: I had not noticed the big neckguard before!How come considering it is way oversized!!!
Graham.