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+--- Thread: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern (/showthread.php?tid=3385)
Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Marcus Mummius - 05-18-2005
Greetings,
Is it true that all roman swords were made with the damasc steel technique? Who among you has a sword with a stripe pattern? Who amongst the late roman reenactors has a stripe patterned spatha?
Best regards,
Marcus
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-18-2005
Many Roman swords from the second century onwards were indeed pattern welded (what you call damasc) - but by no means all of them were. I believe it is more correct to call the earlier ones proto-welded, rather than pattern welded.
I seriously doubt many re-enactors own a true pattern welded sword - they are very expensive indeed. The one I would like - 3rd century with a fuller would cost about £1200 for the blade alone (whats that about 1800 Eur?). The hilt and scabbard would be extra. And that is just for a pretty simple patterned blade.
The pattern depends on the number of iron rods used to make up the blade, and how they are twisted. Soft rods are usually used to make the blade core, while harder ones are used on the cutting edges.
I personally only know of two craftsmen in Europe who could make a true Roman type pattern welded blade. Some companies/craftsmen can make blades that look like they are pattern welded by using wax and acid. The wax is melted on to the blade, then scraped away in the desired pattern, before it is put in a mild acid solution.
Hope this helps a bit?
Andrew
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Carlton Bach - 05-18-2005
Quote:I personally only know of two craftsmen in Europe who could make a true Roman type pattern welded blade. Some companies/craftsmen can make blades that look like they are pattern welded by using wax and acid. The wax is melted on to the blade, then scraped away in the desired pattern, before it is put in a mild acid solution.
Spounds like something one might be tempted to try at home. Has anyone already been this foolish?
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Marcus Mummius - 05-18-2005
Thanks for the reply Andrew!
Holger Ratsdorf told me that all roman swords where pattern welded, but that to see it on some swords you had to use a microscope. So this is not true? A sword out of one piece is perfectly correct? The blade for a late roman spatha with a stripe pattern costs between 800€ and 1400€ (depends on the weight, fullering,...) if you buy it from Ratsdorf.
What kind of spatha do you have? Where did you get it?
Valete,
Marcus
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-18-2005
Hi again Marcus,
No blades made from one piece of iron are perfectly historically correct as well. As much as I respect Holger, he can make some rather sweeping statements. Mind you, one of the things I thought we disagreed on was down to a translation error on my part.
Holger's blades are made here in the UK by Hector Cole. Now I own a knife made by Hector Cole from actual Roman nails welded together to form a single blade. It that pattern welded? Not to my mind it is - even though it was not made from a single iron billet. Pattern welding from what I understand actually involves the twisting of iron rods or bars, forming patterns in the process.
My spatha is from Albion in the US. It is actually based on an early second century find, but the blade dimensions are fine for a late 2nd or early 3rd Straubing/Nydam type blade. The scabbard was made in here in UK by Godfrey Knight. Apologies I do not currently have a close up of it, but you can see it on the previous pictures I have posted.
![[Image: earlyspathah.jpg]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/Sassanid/earlyspathah.jpg)
![[Image: ROMANI1.jpg]](http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/Sassanid/ROMANI1.jpg)
Volker,
On putting a cheaper blade in acid - why not? From memory - was there not a proto welded 1st early 2nd century gladius blade found at Newstead? With a simple wavey pattern going down the whole blade.
Andrew
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - caiusbeerquitius - 05-19-2005
Holger is not so extremely wrong, I would say. Most of the blades I have seen are indeed made of layers (stripe-damascus or torsion-damascus). Usually this is not mentioned in the publications, as an x-ray would not show this - the layers are too thin. In many cases, they are indeed not visible as well, for the same reason, but also due to restoring techniques. Almost all of the Künzing daggers are layered, also the semi-spathae from there. The publication mentions a not-finished spatha-blade found there as well. This blade is of a sort of mono-steel, and seems to have been made during or right before the siege of the place. Apparently, if there was enough time, the blades were decorated.
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Marcus Mummius - 05-19-2005
Quote:Sassanid:3hi28thp Wrote:I personally only know of two craftsmen in Europe who could make a true Roman type pattern welded blade. Some companies/craftsmen can make blades that look like they are pattern welded by using wax and acid. The wax is melted on to the blade, then scraped away in the desired pattern, before it is put in a mild acid solution.
Spounds like something one might be tempted to try at home. Has anyone already been this foolish?
It is indeed tempting... What sort of acid should be used? Do you mean beeswax? How long would you have to dip the sword into the acid? Will the effect be the same as a pattern welded sword?
Valete,
Marcus
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-19-2005
Hi Christian,
Many, possibly most, ok, but certainly not all. My books and sources certainly give a much more varied picture. Are they all wrong? I cannot really answer without a microscope of my own and a lot of time.
Marcus,
On the wax and acid - I am afraid I have not a clue. I don't think beeswax would be my first choice though. And I would definitely test it on some old scraps first.
Cheers
Andrew
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Magnus - 05-19-2005
Using acid to etch the blades highlights the differences in the steel structures...producing the patterns we're used to seeing in both damascus steel, as well as the temper line in japanese swords (although polishing with stones, not acid is used in traditional japanese polishes). Anyway, from what I've learned of hybrid polishes to bring out the temper lines on modern production japanese swords...either ferric chloride or vinnegar is used. Basically the acid reacts differently with the various structures of the steels used in the blade, producing different colours.
If you really want to know, go to [url:y19j41sc]http://www.swordforum.com[/url] and run a search on "etching" or "acid etching". You'll probably have more information than you'll need.
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - caiusbeerquitius - 05-19-2005
@ Sassanid:
Hi!
Quote:Many, possibly most, ok, but certainly not all.That´s what I said.
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-20-2005
Thank you Magnus,
Arbeia museum has a couple of old rusty blades. I will do some research, and maybe give it a go. I am still saving though - one day I will have my own pattern welded fullered blade. Just please... anyone, don't tell my other half. :lol:
Andrew
coca cola - Marcus Mummius - 05-20-2005
Apparently you can also use Coca Cola to etch a design. Does someone know if this is true? You have to cover the parts of the blade you do not want to have etched with some kind of resist. For the resist you can use equal parts of Bees wax and powdered Asphaltum. But I think that if you are using coke as the acid beeswax alone should be enough... I think I will try this out on a knife. If it works good I might try it to fake a stripe pattern.
Best regards,
Marcus
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-20-2005
Evening Marcus,
Ospreys "Imperial Roman Legionary AD 161-284" has a Angus Mcbride colour plate dedicated to pattern welded blades. A number of patterns look quite achievable with a bit of time and effort. One shows a simple diamond pattern repeating over the blade. I will have a dig around and see if I can find any more large images.
Please let me know how your experiments go. I would be very interested. I have heard about Coca Cola etching your stomach, so I guess it could etch a blade as well. The patterns should be quite subtle - not too bright and in your face.
Andrew
deepeeka dasc swords - Marcus Mummius - 05-20-2005
It appears that deepeeka also makes damasc blades!
Has anyone ever seen those swords? Are they realy damasc or just etched in with acid?
The link: http://www.deepeeka.com/store/comersus_ ... oduct=3447
Perhaps Daniel Peterson can help with this...
Best regards,
Marcus
Re: Late roman spatha\'s with stripe pattern - Sassanid - 05-20-2005
They are etched - not true damasc.
Sword Bs hilt looks quite nice for a 3rd century sword. Not sure about the blade shape for the last quarter towards the tip. But may be it is just the camera angle.