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+--- Thread: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? (/showthread.php?tid=30555)
Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Robert - 08-13-2017
Greetings!
Wanting to make some bronze handled knives, this one is a prime candidate: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/60205
BUT .... it is marked as a clasp knife. However, there is no hole for the pin and the cross hatched decoration is unbroken, the cut-out for holding the blade is slanted inward, not outward as one would expect with a clasp-knife and there is no real recess to hold the blade when folded. So I am in serious doubt about that identification.
SO ..... please give your opinion on this piece. What is it most likely to be clasp-knife or razor or utility/pen knife? I will try to add a poll, but feel free to comment and reason.
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Renatus - 08-13-2017
This (I think) is a detailed illustration of this item:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Views_of_gladiator_clasp_knife_%28FindID_60205%29.jpg/998px-Views_of_gladiator_clasp_knife_%28FindID_60205%29.jpg
And this is a clasp Knife from Piddington, Northants. for comparison:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/staticarchive/74c16bced66aba8248900efb0d475b94e4542b6d
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Robert - 08-13-2017
Yes, indeed it is, it is also in the finds.org.uk link, the second picture. That gives a really good view of the base, causing my doubt about it being a folding knife ..... What do you think?
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Crispianus - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:14 AM)Robert Wrote: Greetings!
Wanting to make some bronze handled knives, this one is a prime candidate: https://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/60205
BUT .... it is marked as a clasp knife. However, there is no hole for the pin and the cross hatched decoration is unbroken, the cut-out for holding the blade is slanted inward, not outward as one would expect with a clasp-knife and there is no real recess to hold the blade when folded. So I am in serious doubt about that identification.
SO ..... please give your opinion on this piece. What is it most likely to be clasp-knife or razor or utility/pen knife? I will try to add a poll, but feel free to comment and reason.
I would say its an unfinished handle for a folding knife.... Artifacts has a good entry for what there is called a "Pen Knife" also mentions bone handled examples:
http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id=CNF-4014&find=piddington&pagenum=1&affmode=vign
check the above link for this which I think is more like it : Guiot 2003: T. Guiot, Couteau pliant en forme de gladiateur à Saint-Patrice (Indre-et-Loire), Instrumentum 17, 2003, 20. télécharger
Bone examples: http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id=CNF-4007&find=Penknife&pagenum=1&affmode=vign
I suspect some are Razors
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Robert - 08-13-2017
Oh, good find! Wonderful specimen
The only thing against the "work in progress" theory would be the iron residue of a blade found in cleft. And would it be cast without the ridge to hold the blade or no indication of it to act a guide to secondary sawing or chiselling?
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Crispianus - 08-14-2017
You could be right but that would mean it would have to be a fixed blade... and I would say the evidence is inconclusive at this point...
"The clasp contains a vertical slot for the knife on the reverse. This slot contains a small amount of iron corrosion."
This may or may not be actual remains of a blade but could be contamination from another source?
Penknife all: http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/results.php?find=Penknife&searching=yes&search_button=Search
Given the numbers and variety it perhaps would not be unexpected to find incomplete examples?
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - brennivs - tony drake - 08-14-2017
I have made a clasp knife the hound and hare one, looking at this one I would say it is a clasp knife judging from the side angle and the curve of the body, however it was possibly cast in wax from a generic mould and the slot was then melted into the wax before covering in clay and then finished in bronze. I think someone forgot to do this
just about to fit blade then #*it #*it #*it. The iron corrosion could come from imputitys in the clay used in the casting it my have not been cleaned completely seeing the gaf made. Robert I would do this as a clasp knife and put the slot in. I do like these knifes and the many subject matters used to achieve the handle.Regards Brennivs
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Robert - 08-14-2017
Thanks for the input, everyone!
OK, this is what I came up with as a potential design based on all the links and hints. Taking orders
!RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Renatus - 08-14-2017
Although this type of folding knife with elaborate handle seems to have been popular, this does not preclude there being knives with similar handles but fixed blades. This is an example:
http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id=CTO-4010&find=knife handle&pagenum=1&affmode=vign
The material is different but the principle remains valid.
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Crispianus - 08-15-2017
(08-14-2017, 09:55 PM)Renatus Wrote: Although this type of folding knife with elaborate handle seems to have been popular, this does not preclude there being knives with similar handles but fixed blades. This is an example:
http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id=CTO-4010&find=knife handle&pagenum=1&affmode=vign
The material is different but the principle remains valid.
Yes of course theres no doubt of that... the attachment method is the problem, perhaps you could solder a blade in place...
I rather like this sandel and sock knife which comes in both varieties only one of the 12 examples shown is a folding knife:
http://artefacts.mom.fr/en/result.php?id=CNF-4036&find=knife&pagenum=3&affmode=vign
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Robert - 08-15-2017
The attachment is indeed a matter of thought, although soldering and brazing were commonly used by the Romans. Brazing here is out, but soldering is certainly a good option. Looking at the drawing, it seems as if the socket for the blade has been crimped, too. It is very similar to the way a Roman scalpel blade is inserted into the handle.
From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Renatus - 08-15-2017
(08-15-2017, 07:57 AM)Robert Wrote: From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?
The folding knife looks more interesting and would probably sell better. On the other hand, would it be possible to offer both: have a basic handle and fit a blade to order?
RE: Opinions needed; clasp knife or razor?? - Crispianus - 08-16-2017
(08-15-2017, 07:57 AM)Robert Wrote: The attachment is indeed a matter of thought, although soldering and brazing were commonly used by the Romans. Brazing here is out, but soldering is certainly a good option. Looking at the drawing, it seems as if the socket for the blade has been crimped, too. It is very similar to the way a Roman scalpel blade is inserted into the handle.
From a business point of view, would a folding knife sell better then a fixed blade, I wonder?
A description of one of the leg/foot variety indicates probably lead Solder...
Piercebridge:
"The leg is hollow and the calf is divided in two longitudinally by a vertical slot, which
originally accommodated the remains of what was probably an iron blade, now missing but
noted by the finders upon discovery. Iron corrosion and a white substance, possibly lead solder,
are visible within the slot."
https://finds.org.uk/documents/britannia/2005%20(discussing%202004).pdf
I would say a folding knife would be a better seller.... the blades not big enough to be a problem, so you could sell it to anyone including museum shops...