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Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Printable Version

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Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Liburnius - 06-20-2017

Which, in your experiences, are realistic examples of tunics, belts, trousers, and footwear, in the styles that existed between the 3rd through 6th centuries AD?

For the tunic, which represent common variations of patterns, and were plain tunics without decoration still worn in those times? I would be interested in exploring the options for the belts, as well. Were I to acquire a tunic, I would like to go about as slim as historical accuracy approves, as I am quite slim, which means I would ideally want to avoid buying a tunic with too wide or too long sleeves, and perhaps too baggy in the body, even though they were quite voluminous garments already, taken in somewhat by the belt.

If I understand correctly, trousers were extremely common, yet still optional by Late Roman times, with most of those forgoing the trousers living along the Mediterranean, especially Italy. I think Rome, at a certain point, had a standard of dress that required people to not wear them in the city, for being perceived as barbaric, but I cannot recall from which book I've read that. It may have been one of Ian Hughes' books on Roman generals, or an Osprey book. Wool and linen seem to have been the most common materials, but was cotton ever used for clothing in Late Antiquity?

Also, what are examples of shoes, sandals, or boots that were worn in these eras? Earlier Roman caligae won't cut it for depicting a later period, wouldn't it?

I might be interested in starting off with a late Roman civilian impression, rather than military, due to the expenses of gear, although it is possible that I may hold off on that, as well. I would be interested in realizing what a rural Illyrian or Italian Roman commoner would have looked like, but I'll take other suggestions as well. Thank you for your valuable insight!


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Crispvs - 06-21-2017

Despite the lure of shiny metalwork, for any type of re-enactment, soft kit is your most basic requirement. Therefore, you could start off with just the appropriate clothing and then gradually upgrade your impression as funds allowed until you reach the point you feel you want to get to.

That means, as you have already surmised, that you need a tunic and shoes as your first priority. You should then follow that up with trousers, or if you don't feel the need of trousers, leg bindings. In all probability you will probably want both, as well as a cloak. Add to that a hat and you will be fully equipped up to a basic level, which you could stop at or carry on further from.

For tunics, no matter what your body shape, you should think in terms of the garment being wide. Even late Romans liked their clothing to be quite roomy, although that did not always apply to the sleeves, some of which are surprisingly tight. Don't worry about being on the slim side - I have never been over 11 stone myself. The average Roman would not have been anything other than slim either, but that did not stop them habitually wearing clothing which seems ridiculously large to modern eyes. This means that if you want to look like a Roman (regardless of early, middle or late) you have to wear that same ridiculously large clothing and then get comfortable in it (which you will, surprisingly quickly).
The following link has some information of late tunics. Although the writer was specifically thinking of a mid third century impression, you will see that he actually takes his evidence mainly from later tunics. There is also a suitable pattern shown on the site.
http://www.rom.on.ca/en/blog/re-enactment-archaeology-and-the-ancient-rome-greece-weekend-iv-of-iv-the-tunic
You could leave it free of decorations if you wanted, or if you were keen on developing a new skill, you could learn tapestry weaving and do the decorations yourself. Alternatively, some late Roman types here have demonstrated simple and convenient ways of faking up tunic decorations.

For trousers, I would go for a pair modelled on one of the pairs from Thorsburg. I daresay one of the late Roman re-enactors here on RAT should be able to provide you with a suitable pattern. They should be able to provide you too, with an appropriate pattern for a chlamys type cloak.

I am no expert on late Roman footwear, so I will leave that for better educated heads to advise on.

Crispvs


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Robert Vermaat - 06-21-2017

(06-20-2017, 10:46 PM)Liburnius Wrote: Which, in your experiences, are realistic examples of tunics, belts, trousers, and footwear, in the styles that existed between the 3rd through 6th centuries AD?
I would be interested in realizing what a rural Illyrian or Italian Roman commoner would have looked like

Hi Jason,

It's good to specify what you want, because all the answers will vary between 200 and 700. Also, are you a commoner in a city or a farmer?
My answer will be for someone living in a town c. 300-400, following the general fashion.

Crispus already gave some good advice in general. So does the guy on that website, although his tunic is a tad long - even unbelted, I would not recommend longer than the knee or just below it.

Your tunic is indeed wide, with long and very narrow sleeves, and decorated - and no monochrome either. Undecorated is only for a farmer, a poor man etc. Even slaves of rich folks wore heavily decorated tunics. You could easily make a linen tunic yourself, but decorations are always the bottleneck. I've started out with monochrome decoration myself, but these days it's easy to buy your clavi (stripes) and orbiculi (roundels) separate and sew them on afterwards.

Trousers - indeed the tight-fitting Thorsberg type is preferred if you are follwing any fashion. For someone doing manual labour a slightly wider fitting (and easier to produce yourself) type is also allowed, with leg bindings of course.

Belt - just something simple with a simple buckle - those wider, lavishly decorated belts you may have seem are only for the military and the civil servants. Of course when it's hot, commoners would be working without trousers, leg wraps only. Thin wool or linen, cotton is only for the rich.
You need naalbound socks, too.

Cloak - wool, either a simple rectangle (sagum) or an oval (chlamys), both folded double (you need it as a blanket while travelling) and pinnen on the right shoulder with a simple fibula. No crossbow types, those are military, look for a disc- or and animal fibula, or better a pin or a ring fibula.

For shoes, campagi and carbatinae would be the types - indeed no caligae!
This site will provide you with enough ideas: https://sutor.jimdo.com/
Civilians wore nailed soles as well as the military if they chose to.

I hope that helped you a bit?


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Flavivs Aetivs - 06-22-2017

(06-20-2017, 10:46 PM)Liburnius Wrote: Which, in your experiences, are realistic examples of tunics, belts, trousers, and footwear, in the styles that existed between the 3rd through 6th centuries AD?

For the tunic, which represent common variations of patterns, and were plain tunics without decoration still worn in those times? I would be interested in exploring the options for the belts, as well. Were I to acquire a tunic, I would like to go about as slim as historical accuracy approves, as I am quite slim, which means I would ideally want to avoid buying a tunic with too wide or too long sleeves, and perhaps too baggy in the body, even though they were quite voluminous garments already, taken in somewhat by the belt.

If I understand correctly, trousers were extremely common, yet still optional by Late Roman times, with most of those forgoing the trousers living along the Mediterranean, especially Italy. I think Rome, at a certain point, had a standard of dress that required people to not wear them in the city, for being perceived as barbaric, but I cannot recall from which book I've read that. It may have been one of Ian Hughes' books on Roman generals, or an Osprey book. Wool and linen seem to have been the most common materials, but was cotton ever used for clothing in Late Antiquity?

Also, what are examples of shoes, sandals, or boots that were worn in these eras? Earlier Roman caligae won't cut it for depicting a later period, wouldn't it?

I might be interested in starting off with a late Roman civilian impression, rather than military, due to the expenses of gear, although it is possible that I may hold off on that, as well. I would be interested in realizing what a rural Illyrian or Italian Roman commoner would have looked like, but I'll take other suggestions as well. Thank you for your valuable insight!

In a nutshell, check out Medievaldesign.

http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodotti-uomo.asp?form_chiave=33

I can help you with belt fittings if you are more specific with what date you're looking for.

Pretty much everyone wore trousers, and yeah that law did exist at one point during the 1st century AD. In hot areas they wore linen trousers instead of wool.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Robert Vermaat - 06-22-2017

(06-22-2017, 12:17 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: In a nutshell, check out Medievaldesign.

They are very good, indeed. I wear their clothing.
However, what they offer is much more for the soldier or the upper class civilian, NOT your Illyrian commoner, although you could adapt a lot to arive where you want to go.
Also, for a beginner this might be a bit costly.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Flavivs Aetivs - 06-22-2017

In terms of tunic, trousers, and shoes, their stuff works for every class of Roman society, except probably slaves.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Graham Sumner - 06-22-2017

You could also read "Roman Military Dress".


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Flavivs Aetivs - 06-22-2017

Subtle Graham. Real Subtle. Tongue

In all seriousness, "Roman Military Dress" and "By the Emperor's" hand are both great sources. Along with MC Bishop's "Roman Military Equipment."


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Liburnius - 06-27-2017

Thank you for your excellent information. I'm sorry to leave you hanging, for a while. Once again, it is no guarantee that I will be getting into Roman reenactment, but this has been very helpful information to know at least how people dressed in the late Roman eras discussed, and how I might go about starting out.

Here are some more questions.

Did most late Roman tunics have side vents? I notice this with ones vendors provide online.

Also, is there a single style of tunic that could accurately span for a few centuries, and still be worn to depict a specific period, or do I have to pay much closer attention to the fashions of the decades?

What are some changes in Roman dress by the times of Justinian and Belisarius? I'm noticing the Coptic patterned tunics are ubiquitous up to that point, but at what point do those fade out of Roman wear?

Are we allowed to directly discuss vendors, here? Which are sources to get period shoes/boots without hobnails? I want to be able to walk on delicate floors around the house as well as the field, so I'm hoping there is a historical precedent for versions without them, but to what loss or gain do hobnails provide?

Finally, how do I handle the issue of laundering my garments safely? Do you dry-clean, most of the time, and how often do you clean them? What was clothing hygiene like at the time?


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Robert Vermaat - 06-27-2017

Hi Jason,

Did most late Roman tunics have side vents? 
I think not.

Also, is there a single style of tunic that could accurately span for a few centuries? 
The coptic tunic can be safely used from the late rd until the early 6th century I think. Especially if you're still going for a 'commoner' look, which has less gaudy decorations and is less prone to fashion changes. 

What are some changes in Roman dress by the times of Justinian and Belisarius? 
From the mid-6th c. onwards you see the development of the single clavus down the middle of the tunic.

Are we allowed to directly discuss vendors, here? Which are sources to get period shoes/boots without hobnails? 
No hobnails is no problem, both were worn (especially by civilians) and I don't think vendors would have a problem with making your shoes without them. Wink

Finally, how do I handle the issue of laundering my garments safely? 
First wash always cold and by hand - if you don't trust your garment, wash with something that preserves colour. I once experienced that with a €300 tunic from a German vendor, which surprised me. I wash my clothing in the machine, on 30 degrees C. No problems (separating light from dark fabrics of course).


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Liburnius - 06-29-2017

Thank you for your advice, Robert! I think if I eventually wanted to move onto something military, I would try to begin collecting pieces to result in a similar appearance to the one seen in this picture.

[Image: brachiati-seniores-20mm-late-roman-figs.jpg?w=1024]


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Flavivs Aetivs - 06-29-2017

Quote:Did most late Roman tunics have side vents? I notice this with ones vendors provide online.

Based on the way these tunics were historically constructed, the slites at the end of the skirt are entirely possible. I would strongly recommend getting your Tunic from Medievaldesign if you don't have it done by someone who can do it custom.

http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodotti-uomo.asp?form_chiave=33

The colors in the images on their site are examples, they offer pretty much any combination of colors.

Quote:Also, is there a single style of tunic that could accurately span for a few centuries, and still be worn to depict a specific period, or do I have to pay much closer attention to the fashions of the decades?

What are some changes in Roman dress by the times of Justinian and Belisarius? I'm noticing the Coptic patterned tunics are ubiquitous up to that point, but at what point do those fade out of Roman wear?

Basically, the Coptic tunics you can buy will work fine until the late 6th century. Beginning in the early 7th century the pattern changes and Tunics switch to shaped tunics. A T-shaped decoration on the front of the Tunic is more accurate for the Justinianic army, but the standard ones with roundels or patches are entirely appropriate as well.

Quote:Which are sources to get period shoes/boots without hobnails? I want to be able to walk on delicate floors around the house as well as the field, so I'm hoping there is a historical precedent for versions without them, but to what loss or gain do hobnails provide?

You'll want hobnails for outdoors, definitely. But having a pair of Soleae (Sandals) or some shoes without hobnails to wear indoors I would recommend as well.

For boots, if you want custom and comfortable ones, go with Martin Moser. He can make whatever you so desire. Although unlike the image you posted, I recommend you purchase a pair of Campagi. Campagi were in use from the 3rd-7th centuries AD (at least) and will work fine for several impressions.

https://sutor.jimdo.com/4th-century-ad/luxembourg-campagus-i/

Quote:Finally, how do I handle the issue of laundering my garments safely? Do you dry-clean, most of the time, and how often do you clean them? What was clothing hygiene like at the time?

Dry clean coptic tunics and spot clean any stains. Socks, Trousers, anything without decorations I think you'll be fine throwing them in the wash and then hanging them to dry.

Quote:image

Just to point out a few problems with this image:

1. That's the Leiden Spangenhelm which dates to the 6th century. These probably were coming into use in the mid-5th century, but it lacks things like the leather edging and a quilted coif.

2. He's wearing a wide belt. This is the stickler - different belt fittings represent different eras. A wide belt from the mid-4th century won't work for mid-5th, and wide belts don't work at all for 6th. Scabbard fittings, sword hilts, brooches, and belt fittings are really what determines your era.

3. Sword Hilt - That looks like a Gladius hilt, which won't work at all for Late Roman. Those classic Roman style hilts with the semicircular pommel and spherical/egg-shaped pommels disappear around 325 AD. They get replaced by Germanic-Type 1 Hilts, mostly.

4. Shield - too small. Although the Germanics would use Smaller shields, and so would Roman cavalry and standard bearers/some officers, there's no evidence that mainline infantry were doing this until much later. All Roman shields were about 38-42 inches long and about 36-42 inches wide. That shield there is maybe about 28 inches which is much too small.

Quote:Once again, it is no guarantee that I will be getting into Roman reenactment, but this has been very helpful information to know at least how people dressed in the late Roman eras discussed, and how I might go about starting out.

Where do you live? I can point you to a local group.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Liburnius - 06-30-2017

Thank you for your valuable insight, Aetivs. I will consider the wide range of knowledge amassed here, so far. I live very close to Los Angeles. I'm also impressed by how many specific points you've noticed wrong with that picture, and curious about the image's later helmet depiction for the earlier time. What did period accurate Spangenhelms, as worn by Western/Eastern Roman troops, look like exactly? Is there an Osprey-type image? My eyes are not yet trained to differentiate between them. They appear to have been worn early on by the Sarmatians, from the first or second centuries AD, but adopted by other groups much later. I think I might just consider a Ridge or Intercisa helmet, though.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Robert Vermaat - 06-30-2017

(06-29-2017, 06:24 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: Just to point out a few problems with this image

Yep, agreed on all points.


RE: Help With Realistic Late Roman Clothing for Starting Out? - Longovicium - 06-30-2017

Yes that image is from a series which are either copied (inaccurately from the Osprey books) or sort of made up. The book is as follows:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Illustrated-Encyclopedia-Uniforms-Roman-World-Kevin-Kiley/0754823873/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1498832413&sr=1-1&keywords=uniforms+of+the+roman+army

I would steer clear of using any of the images in the book as a reference point. My understanding is that the artists were given briefs to paint based on the Osprey images and then copied/'adapted' them without having any real understanding of what it was they were painting. This review on Amazon pretty much sums it up:

Sadly I have to agree with the previous guy, this book is pretty bad. The illustrations are high quality (but then again they should be, many of them are straight-up copies of the works of the old masters like Angus McBride and Peter Connolly!) but the scholarship is pretty shoddy.

You get the sense that the author sometimes just doesn't know what he's talking about. There are a shocking number of errors in the captions which accompany the artwork, most of them are brief and feel uninformed. The author doesn't make much use of specialist terms, or simply uses the wrong terms. For example he labels a bucket-looking helmet as a pot helmet, and uses the same term to describe an elaborate, ornamental helmet not a few pages later. Another statement which floored me was the claim the Diocletianic reforms abolished segmented armour. Where on earth did the author find this statement??

Figures and helmets are mislabeled in pretty glaring ways. One bronze age-esque helmet is described as a later Germanic helmet (this term doesn't really exist), and several uniforms that clearly belong in the late 1st century are labeled as 4th century. I think late Roman scholarship has progressed to a level of general public awareness that makes this kind of mislabeling unacceptable.

The worst part was two figures that appear toward the end of the book. Both are copied from or at least heavily influenced by Graham Sumner's illustration in Osprey's Roman Naval Forces. One soldier was carrying a short javelin-like object, and the caption read: the arrow-like object is probably not a weapon but a symbol of rank. That's it. No further elaboration as to what its purpose was or where it came from. It's almost like the author was taken by surprise at what the illustrator gave him. Same case with a figure on the next page, an officer wearing a blue cloak. The caption reads: the cloak is blue, probably because of his naval service. How did the author come to this conclusion? And why does he sound so unsure of it??

This is a pretty bad book overall, and any ancient military history nerd worth his salt should stay well clear of it.