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scale/lamellar armour - SAJID - 05-17-2017
Hi to all,
Hi, i want to ask about scale armour, just like i have seen in many roman movie
they used scale armour in leather, is it right while i mostly seen here only
in metal?
hope you will help as before
with best regards- sajid
scale/scale/
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Flavivs Aetivs - 05-17-2017
No. Well there's one example from Egypt which was a local style used for a horse. All the Roman ones are Cupric Alloy or Steel.
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Crispianus - 05-18-2017
(05-17-2017, 11:25 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: No. Well there's one example from Egypt which was a local style used for a horse. All the Roman ones are Cupric Alloy or Steel.
I assume you mean the "leather" Armour from Dura.... For details on the construction and use see: http://www.spa-uitgevers.nl/Webwinkel-Product-106744967/The-Excavations-at-Dura-Europos.-The-Arms-and-Armour-and-other-Military-Equipment.html
From Karanis, most probably Rawhide, although such items are often referred to as leather they survive only under exceptional circumstances:
http://exhibitions.kelsey.lsa.umich.edu/ConAntiq/leatherarmor.html
note the final product was painted Red, from the look of it the form may well have been similar to other scale shirts... no further details known to me precently...
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Flavivs Aetivs - 05-18-2017
(05-18-2017, 07:29 AM)Crispianus Wrote:(05-17-2017, 11:25 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: No. Well there's one example from Egypt which was a local style used for a horse. All the Roman ones are Cupric Alloy or Steel.
I assume you mean the "leather" Armour from Dura.... For details on the construction and use see: http://www.spa-uitgevers.nl/Webwinkel-Product-106744967/The-Excavations-at-Dura-Europos.-The-Arms-and-Armour-and-other-Military-Equipment.html
From Karanis, most probably Rawhide, although such items are often referred to as leather they survive only under exceptional circumstances:
http://exhibitions.kelsey.lsa.umich.edu/ConAntiq/leatherarmor.html
note the final product was painted Red, from the look of it the form may well have been similar to other scale shirts... no further details known to me precently...
No I don't mean Dura, I mean Karanis. Both were analyzed and are poorly-tanned leather. Not rawhide.
Dura is what they call exposed lacing hanging lamellar, not scale. Comitatus has a reconstruction which they wear both inside-out and on their thighs (based on Simon James' initial report from 2004, he later corrected this). The original was a neckguard for a horse.
The Karanis fragments are too large to have been for a human as well, the shape of the neck is consistent with the size of a horse's neck. And yes it was originally dyed red. The fragments were being reanalyzed a few years ago (original publication from 1925) to be republished, but I haven't heard word since then.
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Crispianus - 05-18-2017
(05-18-2017, 12:01 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: Wrote: No I don't mean Dura, I mean Karanis. Both were analyzed and are poorly-tanned leather. Not rawhide.
Dura is what they call exposed lacing hanging lamellar, not scale. Comitatus has a reconstruction which they wear both inside-out and on their thighs (based on Simon James' initial report from 2004, he later corrected this). The original was a neckguard for a horse.
The Karanis fragments are too large to have been for a human as well, the shape of the neck is consistent with the size of a horse's neck. And yes it was originally dyed red. The fragments were being reanalyzed a few years ago (original publication from 1925) to be republished, but I haven't heard word since then.
On the Karanis Armour, I dont know what you mean by "Poorly Tanned", its either tanned, tawed, cured, rawhide a combination or something else entirely... sounds more like half tanned though where the core is rawhide...
Scale size, not sure I would say 5X3cm or so (dura 65x45 to90x50mm) is too big for a scale shirt especially when half is overlap effectively doubling the thickness, I estimate the neck as layed out is 36cm which is obviously too large but pretty certain you could get it down to much less then that..
Not seen any additional papers on the Dura armour by Simon James so I can't really comment on that, but considering how the scales fall Im having trouble seeing how it could be hung on a horse? note the metal horse armour overlaps top to bottom/ front to back...
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Dan Howard - 05-18-2017
I'd say that both were meant to be worn by people, not horses. I'd like to know how you can tell the difference in a two-thousand year old piece of leather whether it was deliberately partially tanned or whether it was initially rawhide that had been semi-tanned while buried.
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Crispianus - 05-19-2017
(05-18-2017, 10:08 PM)Dan Howard Wrote: I'd say that both were meant to be worn by people, not horses. I'd like to know how you can tell the difference in a two-thousand year old piece of leather whether it was deliberately partially tanned or whether it was initially rawhide that had been semi-tanned while buried.
Totally agree Dan...
3rd option is tannins used for deliberate colouring which can give false positives..
RE: scale/lamellar armour - Flavivs Aetivs - 05-19-2017
Nadeem Ahmad knows more than I do.
The Dura fragments are gigantic, they're 50cm by 70cm, there's no way they were for a person unless it was Centurion Thunder Thighs. David Nicolle proposes this in "A companion to medieval arms and armor." One of his few books that actually has citations.
And like Crispianus said, the neckhole for the Karanis collar is about 40cm wide, which again is too large for a person.