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References to late Roman army??? - Printable Version

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RE: References to late Roman army??? - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-23-2017

Vegetius 2.2 and Jerome's language isn't similar. Jerome probably read the source and was writing in his own words, while Vegetius excerpted it and augmented/interpreted it.


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Robert Vermaat - 10-24-2017

(10-22-2017, 05:23 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: J and V were roughly contemporary, probably both were drawing from similar sources, and both discussing the situation in the past rather than their own day.

 Or Vegetius wrote a century later Wink
But even isidore of Seville still writes (early 7th century) that a legion consists of 6.000 men (IX.3.46).


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Nathan Ross - 10-24-2017

(10-24-2017, 10:51 AM)Robert Vermaat Wrote: Or Vegetius wrote a century later Wink

Were they not around at about the same time? I thought Jerome's dates were supposedly AD347-420, and Vegetius (debatably!) was probably writing c.AD400? Or am I thinking of somebody else?

But anyway, yes, the 6000-man legion thing turns up several times. As Michael says, it could have been a rough calculation by number of cohorts, or it could have been taken from any one of several earlier sources (Festus, I think, gives 6200), so it's hard to pin the figure to any particular era.


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Julian de Vries - 11-09-2017

Could we gain more information on the Roman army by studying the Arabian foederati?:

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 The Forty martyrs of the Sinai Desert and the story of Eulogios : from a Palestinian Syriac and Arabic palimpsest / transcribed by Agnes Smith Lewis..

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.ah22kq;view=1up;seq=13

Timeframe of emperor Valens.

(p.29) And the Saracens and the Phranites also who were to be found there came up and prepared to make war with the Blemmyes, for the sake of their women and their children. And they were assembled to the number of two hundred men, beside the women and their children upon the mountain which is above the palm-trees, where there are fountains of water.

(p.42) And while they were doing these things, men came from Pharan, valient chosen men, six hundred in number, and the Barbarians were mourning because of their country.

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These numbers remind me of the Hunnic foederati of Synesius.

See also, from page 297 of BYZANTIUM AND THE ARABS IN THE FOURTH CENTURY

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Le Livre du synaxaire le 8 tahschasch

9. Fragment propre du Martyre dÁbba Paesi et de sa soeur Thecle

Timeframe: Diocletian

Dans ce palais demeuraient cent soldats.

In this palace remained a hundred soldiers.

https://archive.org/stream/patrologiaorien15pari#page/680/mode/2up


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Julian de Vries - 02-11-2018

Philothee(Filatawos) and 10.500 soldiers and 100 officers. (a few pages up: Koryon and Filemon again, also another Filatawos with 9700 people.)

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuedelorientch2819311932pari#page/438/mode/1up/search/soldats
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Koryon and Filmon (or perhaps called Gorion and Philemon) centurions of the prefect Arien and their 40 soldiers.
 
http://www.archive.org/stream/revuedelorientch2119181919pari#page/259/mode/1up/search/soldats
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40 soldiers (Pseudo-Clementine??)

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuedelorientch151910pari#page/438/mode/1up/search/soldats
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Saint Luc: Timeframe Nero : 4 emperor guards? and 200 soldiers.

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuedelorientch31898pari#page/153/mode/1up/search/soldats
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5 tribunes accompanies a troop of soldiers

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuedelorientch21897pari#page/316/mode/1up/search/soldats


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Julian de Vries - 09-21-2018

The story of Paphnutius

Let us compare two versions of manuscripts and see where it goes. I think there might be some authentic information on the Roman Army hidden under them.

Coptic Version:



https://archive.org/stream/actamartyrum01bale#page/n79/mode/1up/search/centurionibus


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“Regnante Diocletiano...”

Time-frame of Diocletian



“...praecepit duobus centurionibus...”

This text seems to refer to two centurions


“iam enim accusarunt te apud Arianum praesidem quod christianus sis, et ecce ipse praecepit LXXX militibus ut conquirant te mane.”

And a little later in the text a reference to 80 soldiers. Could the 2 centurions be related to the 80 soldiers perhaps?


Greek/Latin Version:


https://www.heiligenlexikon.de/ActaSanctorum/24.September.html#PI061393


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“...Fuit imperatore Diocletiano ...”

Again time-frame of Diocletian.


“...duobus centurionibus præcepit...”

Here are the two centurions again.


“Jam enim delatus es apud Arianum præsidem, qui præcepit ducentis militibus, ut, antequam dies crastinus illucescat, te vinctum ad tribunal ducant.”

Could this be translated as 200 soldiers perhaps? Have the 80 soldiers in the Coptic version been changed to 200 soldiers in the Greek/Latin version?


“[Eusebius militum dux cum quadringentis militibus conversus,] Eusebius præfectus, cum B. Paphnutium a mortuis excitatum vidisset, credidit Domino Jesu cum militibus suis: quos cum recensuisset, invenit quadringentos.”

“Tunc præses surrexit, & indignatus, jussit abduci Eusebium cum quadringentis Militibus, & omnes vivos comburi.”



The second chapter of this text has Eusebius the præpositus / praefectus (?) and 400 (?) soldiers. It is quite rare to see an army number and an officer title together.


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Here I found some information on Paphnutius:


https://books.google.nl/books?id=ErT95wD9SZYC&pg=PA89&dq=paphnutius&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv-7PQgczdAhWHsaQKHU6YBMYQ6AEIWDAH#v=onepage&q=paphnutius&f=false


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So, what do you think? Have I translated the soldier numbers correctly? Could this be some genuine information on the late Roman Army?


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Steven James - 09-26-2018

Julian wrote:

And a little later in the text a reference to 80 soldiers. Could the 2 centurions be related to the 80 soldiers perhaps?
 
Could this be translated as 200 soldiers perhaps? Have the 80 soldiers in the Coptic version been changed to 200 soldiers in the Greek/Latin version?
 
The second chapter of this text has Eusebius the præpositus / praefectus (?) and 400 (?) soldiers. It is quite rare to see an army number and an officer title together.
 
80 men, 200 men and 400 men. Oh I could not be happier.


RE: References to late Roman army??? - Steven James - 03-15-2019

The Roman Fleet of the Republic is also missing.