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+--- Thread: Roman Marines (/showthread.php?tid=2776)
Roman Marines - Anonymous - 05-10-2002
Ave,<br>
I am a retired Marine GySgt, and curator of the Marine Corps Legacy Museum. I have also been interested in the Legions of Rome for better than 25 years.<br>
<br>
Naturally, I have an interest in the Roman Marines, and have not been able to find other than fragmentory referances.<br>
<br>
Is anyone aware of any documents or studies done on the subject?<br>
<br>
Would appreciate assistance on the subject.<br>
<br>
Semper Fidelis,<br>
Red <p></p><i></i>
Re: Roman Marines - Praefectusclassis - 05-10-2002
Hi Red,<br>
I already posted an answer on the Roman Empire board. There's hardly any literature specific to Roman Marines, in timeI hope to add some to it. You'll find hardly anything in Ch.Starr's The Roman Imperial Navy or Reddé's Mare Nostrum. The question to which I referred in that other post - where there separate marines in the navy - is discussed in Reddé, 'Les Marins' in Alföldy, Dobson & Eck, "Kaiser, Heer und Gesellschaft in der Römischen Kaiserzeit" (Stuttgart 2000) and in Könen, Classis Germanica (St.Katharinen 2000). <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Roman Marines - Richomeres - 05-11-2002
Treadgold might be helpful 'Byzantium and Its Army 248 - 1081' Stanford 1995, ISBN 9 780804 731638<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Helge <p></p><i></i>
Re: Roman Marines - Praefectusclassis - 05-11-2002
Yes, Helge, you're right, I forgot that. Trouble is that the structure of the Late Roman Navy changed about as much as the army, if not more. Naval operations as a whole - including amphibious ones - took the forefront much more than in the early empire. <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Refs of interest re RomMar - Anonymous - 05-12-2002
Jasper et al,<br>
Thanks for some new refs to look at. I have the following FYI for those who have an interest:<br>
<br>
Greek & Roman Naval Warfare. W.L. Rodgers, Naval Institute Press pp 275-276 Punic Wars and the Corvus.<br>
<br>
The Making of The Roman Army. Keppie, Barnes & Noble<br>
pp 186-187. Establishment/Roots of Legions I & II Auditrix.<br>
<br>
The Army of The Caesars. Grant. M. Evans & Co. Inc.<br>
p 86 - Stations of RomMar, Compositions. Officer derivatives. p 131-132- RomMar stationed at Military Camp (Praetorian) on Viminal hill, Rome under Tiberius.<br>
p 156 -Reorganization of Fleet under Claudius, Citizenship for Marines @ 26 years of service. p 179- Galba/Nero revolt recruitment of legion (I Auditrix) from RomMar @ Misenum. p 182- Marines from Nero Legion appeal to Galba for recognition, unit disbanded. p 187- RomMar legion revolts against Galba. (Galba/Otho).<br>
p 324F- "Suetonius Otho", RomMar used to disarm Praetorian's camp.<br>
p 193-Otho departs Rome with RomMar in unit. (Otho/Vitellius).<br>
<br>
There are several other, unattributed one line refs in other books I hold but not of major importance, along with the refs by V. Somewhere, I have another book which discusses in fair detail, recruitment of RomMar etc, I'll continue to look for it and post refs also.<br>
<br>
NOTE FOR JASPER: TRIED TO OFFLINE E-MAIL, RETURNED. PLEASE CONTACT ME AT [email protected].<br>
<br>
Semper Fidelis,<br>
Red<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Praefectusclassis - 05-12-2002
Hi Red,<br>
Strange that your e-mail was returned, I'll send one to you.<br>
As to your refs, the sources for all this are all just about the same ones. The trouble in literature is often that authors do not differentiate between mariners and marines. It's just one letter in words, but just the one were looking for here. <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Anonymous - 05-18-2002
Connelly has a picture of a marine in his Roman army book forgot the exact title <p></p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Robert Vermaat - 05-22-2002
Don't forget Angus Mc Bride's Plate A of Osprey's 'Arthur and the Anglo-saxon Wars', where he shows Roman sailors in their 'camouflage' blue tunics. I have it enlarged and hanging over my desk at work.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Robert Vermaat<br>
www.vortigernstudies.org.uk/ <p></p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Praefectusclassis - 05-22-2002
That 'illustrates' ( M ) the problem very well. Connolly depicts Roman soldiers using the corvus to attack a Punic ship during the First Punic War, while McBride's is about naval soldiers in the later empire. We might add Connolly's great illustration of the aquilifer of Caesar's Tenth making a beach landing in Britain. The early empire is conspicously missing! <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Gregg - 05-24-2002
There's also a few interesting sculptures. There's the one from Praeneste, supposedly commemorating Actium (the one with the very strange looking crocodile hitching a ride). It's really fascinating because of the different types of helmets, armor and shield emblems depicted. A few of the soldiers don't seem to be wearing armor at all. And one has a shield with a very clear vertical grip. Figure that...<br>
<br>
There's another one, but I'm not sure where it's currently located or where it's from originally. It shows a group of marines on board a ship, each standing in the same position with a shield up and spear raised. But none of them are wearing armor.<br>
<br>
Maybe marines didn't normally wear armor, in case they fell overboard...<br>
<br>
Gregg<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Muzzaguchi - 05-28-2002
Gregg,<br>
<br>
Is that the one that was in the 'Cleopatra: From History to Myth' exhibition? I've got the catalogue from the British Museum Press which I think has an illustration. Nonetheless, if this is not the same, it is possibly a depiction of Roman Marines from approx 30 BC.<br>
<br>
Muzzaguchi <p></p><i></i>
Re: Refs of interest re RomMar - Praefectusclassis - 05-28-2002
I wouldn't know, but the Praeneste relief is very famous, so chances are that this is the same one. <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: Roman Marines - Anonymous - 05-28-2002
I found a section on Roman Marines from Col. Theodore A. Dodge's book "Caesar" It starts in the "fleets" section, page 13 in my book, last paraggraph<br>
it says:<br>
"The fleets were manned by rowers or sailors, and by soldiers or marines. The rowers and sailors were slaves or came from the lower classes: the marines were raised like legions. Their oath of fealty was equally to the admiral and not to the state. A quinquireme had four hundred rowers, the others a corresponding number. The marines were armed like legionaries, but had scythed lances, battle axes and boarding swords."<br>
He also mentions that aboard each ship, there was a commandant of marines(praefectus navis).<br>
Hope this helps<br>
<br>
From a wanna-be Marine,<br>
<br>
Will<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Re: Roman Marines - Praefectusclassis - 05-28-2002
This again is about the republic (and the rowing slaves idea has been revised in the meantime). Where the loyalty of Roman soldiers in any age, but especially in times of Civil War lay, is an interesting question that is valid for all arms.<br>
That the commandant of marines was called 'praefectus navis' seems unlikely to me, because that litteraly means prefect of ships, and not marines. The imperial term was praefectus classis (classis = fleet). The commander of the marines was most probably a centurion, especially if the marines were simply detached legionaires. <p>Greets<BR>
<BR>
Jasper</p><i></i>
Re: reliefs of Roman marines - Guest - 05-29-2002
Salve,<br>
<br>
For some pictures of monuments and paintings depicting Roman naval troops see this site.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Sander van Dorst <p></p><i></i>