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Chinese in Roman Britain - richsc - 09-23-2016
Apparently two Chinese were unearthed in Roman Britain context:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3803648/A-meeting-two-ancient-empires-Chinese-skeletons-Roman-cemetery-promise-rewrite-history.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - John1 - 09-23-2016
Not just a Daily Mail fantasy it seems;
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-bones-rewrite-roman-history-67x80j20x
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Crispianus - 09-24-2016
(09-23-2016, 11:15 PM)John1 Wrote: Not just a Daily Mail fantasy it seems;
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-bones-rewrite-roman-history-67x80j20x
Perhaps they walked all the way in these.... probably similar construction to the middle-eastern Giveh...
Han Dynasty Shoes 1bc-3ad
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Dan Howard - 09-24-2016
Not ALL the way. They caught a lift on some Atlantean trading ships for part of the journey.
All the study shows is that some of the skeletons didn't spend their childhood in England. We already knew that a lot of Romano-Britons came from elsewhere in the Empire. The analysis didn't even compare the diet of these skeletons to those in Rome itself, whose citizens ate food from all over the world. There is nothing in this study to say that the skeletons were Chinese. The only way to show that is to use DNA analysis.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Emil Petecki - 09-24-2016
Quote:Two of the skeletons have a morphology that suggests Asian ancestry
Am I not understanding something? How did they manage to narrow it down to China? They have two skeletons that appear to be of Asian ancestry, that doesn't need to be China at all. In fact, they could have never lived in Asia at all, just descendants of someone who came from there, even quite distant ones.
Quote:The remains of one teenage girl who was found at the site was also discovered with an ivory folding knife carved into the shape of a leopard.
Similar styles of knives have been found to be linked to Carthage.
It is possible she had been a slave captured during one of the many wars between Rome and Carthage, say the archaeologists.
During the long struggle between Claudius and Hannibal I believe. What kind of archaeologists are they?
Overall, even if these skeletons would prove to be of East Asian origin - what of it? That doesn't mean that they came there of their own free will, might have well been captured by the Parthians and then somehow ended up in the Roman Empire as slaves - spoils of war perhaps. That doesn't prove extensive relations between China and Rome at all, or that Rome was quite cosmopolitan, as we know that already. There's hardly anything shocking about it. We do get a proof that there were Asian people in the westernmost part of the Roman Empire, which given the ability to move relatively swiftly around the country is not that amazing either. It is not much more amazing that we have evidence of Romans from Syria there.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Alanus - 09-25-2016
Sorry, I'm at work and pressed for time. Haven't read the speculative article yet. But, a number of "Asians" presumably entered Roman Britain through the stationing of the Equites Taifali Juniors and Seniors, and perhaps other Stilicho-era cavalry detachments. Alans, Huns, and even Goths, could have Asiatic features. The Huns descended from the Xiongnu, heavily imbued with "Mongoloid" traits. Same with the Alans, many of them descended from the Aorsi, who in turn were cultural and physical extentions of the Yuezhi, Wusun, and Sacarauli. Essentially, they carried Siberian and East Asian haplogroups, such as Q242 and Q3 (same as Amerindian), along with the "standard" R1a1 "Scythian" traits. This may account for the idea of "Chinese" upon the isle, even when graves are not found in a military context.
PS: I understand that two of the skeletons were found with a bowl of wonton soup plus a side of pork-fried rice, proof positive they were Chinese... Mandarin, I believe.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Dan Howard - 09-25-2016
This article explains the article's shortcomings
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2016/09/23/chinese-skeletons-in-roman-britain-not-so-fast/#2c840049ef9b
Summary: it is bollocks without DNA analysis.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Robert Vermaat - 09-26-2016
(09-25-2016, 08:45 AM)Dan Howard Wrote: Summary: it is bollocks without DNA analysis.
Indeed! Good to hear that some people keep cool instead of jumping on the crazy bandwagon.
Just toobad that in the conclusion she adds this assumption:
"After all, the Roman and Chinese Empires knew of one another and traded goods over the long distance between themselves. "
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Michael Kerr - 09-26-2016
"After all, the Roman and Chinese Empires knew of one another and traded goods over the long distance between themselves. "
With a lot of middlemen in between.
Regards
Michael Kerr
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Crispianus - 09-26-2016
(09-26-2016, 11:39 AM)Michael Kerr Wrote: "After all, the Roman and Chinese Empires knew of one another and traded goods over the long distance between themselves. "
With a lot of middlemen in between.
Regards
Michael Kerr
Its quite possible that some enterprising traders from the other end of the world could find there way to Londinium, though why on earth they would want to choose a backwater province instead of Rome is any ones guess......
One for the Road
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - ValentinianVictrix - 09-26-2016
Wasn't the 'lost' port in India that the Roman's visited and traded goods, including from China, found a couple of years ago? That is one route any Asiatic's could have entered the Empire.
But Alan makes a very valid point in that a number of Asiatic groupings ended up in Britain, including the Alan's transported there.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Alanus - 09-26-2016
As far as I can tell, Chinese knew about the Roman Empire, called it "Da Qin," but had no idea what a Roman looked like. Even the idea of a trader from the Han Empire finding his way to a south Indian trading center would require fantastic logistics. They did reach Bactria (Kushana) but never went beyond it, according their own historians. This presumptive article sounds like the fantastical "Lost Romans in China" scenario, except the other way around.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Michael Kerr - 09-26-2016
The Tarim city-states, the Sogdian cities and the Pontic/Black Sea city-states and the Kushans and various Saka kingdoms of Northern India would have been successful middlemen in trade between Rome and China. Indian Ocean sea trade between India, Arabia and the African horn with India acting as a "middleman" between those western regions and China & Central Asia for silks & South-East Asia for the supply of spices would have provided an alternative to the troublesome land routes of Central Asia. There was a big demand in India for Roman currency because it was predominantly silver and a lot of Roman merchants made a lot of money as money changers. Some Roman merchants who lived and traded in India converted to Buddhism and returned to Rome to retire as this 2nd Century AD bust of a Roman with a buddhist top knot although the head was probably put on a military bust.
Regards
Michael Kerr
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - richsc - 09-28-2016
The folks who used to be called "physical anthropologists" were/are very good at skull morphology. I volunteered for the head of the Smithsonian's department one summer, and he said made all kinds of judgements based on skulls. Even speculating which tribe a skull found by police in Montana belonged to. The Smithsonian even had displays on skull morphology up until the 1960's. Now, they are now also called 'biological anthropologists' but morphology is still a key part of the discipline. Not sure if these folks were such scientists or not.
Yes, me too on not getting email notifications on thread updates, or I would have stopped by earlier. They aren't going to my junk folder.
RE: Chinese in Roman Britain - Michael Kerr - 09-28-2016
While trade between Rome and the East but I am not sure how old the story is as it could be a slow news day but I saw this on my news feed today.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-28/ancient-roman-coins-unearthed-from-japanese-castle/7884084
Regards
Michael Kerr