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RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Bryan - 08-11-2016
(08-11-2016, 09:07 AM)Steven James Wrote: Bryan wrote:
Also, century and tribes are two completely separate things.
How about instead of telling us, you educate us by showing us?
![[Image: 500px-Roman_constitution.svg.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Roman_constitution.svg/500px-Roman_constitution.svg.png)
Show where the centuries of separate seniore and iuniores were in the tribes.
(08-11-2016, 11:50 AM)JaM Wrote: so you are saying that Proletarii were allowed to serve in legion? thats new... care to post some sources on this?
and just to be clear.. i'm not talking about Legions after Marius, but Legions in the bring of Second Punic War, or legions before Cynoscephalae or Pydna... Steven's numbers are specific for 232BC, so lets not mix them up with Caesarian census..
Besides, my point still stands.. Class I from those numbers was the biggest one, i counted 36% of all.
Just so you're aware, the guy you're debating in this thread is the guy who wrote that paper you're referencing. Also, not everyone agrees with that person's works.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-11-2016
Jaroslav wrote:
If Velites were formed from proletarii i guess they would only select the young ones, those who would be physically fit for such thing, because while skirmishing doesnt required best physical constitution, it would be definitely a problem for some old farmer who spent most of his life working on the field - throwing javelin effectively kinda requires healthy back, while farming is one area well known for chronic back issues..
And that is what I wrote in posting #25 of this thread: “But what if the Romans allocated an age division for the levy to each property class, with Class I recruiting the oldest men, and Class V the youngest? In this manner, Class V, being the youngest and more fleet of foot but the poorest would be recruited to serve as velites in the army.”
Bryan wrote:
Just so you're aware, the guy you're debating in this thread is the guy who wrote that paper you're referencing. Also, not everyone agrees with that person's works.
Thanks for the jpeg, bloody hard to see and it proves nothing...just someone’s theory lacking in depth detail. My take on the Century Assembly and the Tribal Assembly is when voting the centuries in the tribe vote within the century which consisting of the men from the six property classes. So the 40 men of Class I and the 6 equites if they are in agreement, have a count of 46, with the infra classem having a count of 54. This means, Class I needs five votes from Class II to win. Therefore, Class II holds the balance of power. So in a tribe of 10 centuries of iuniores, if six centuries vote yes and four centuries vote no, that tribe has one yes vote. The rest of the tribes do the same. The Century Assembly takes the six classes in a century from each tribe and forms them into centuries of the same property class. This means the 40 men of Class I in a century are added together and of the 200 centuries of iuniores this means there are 8,000 men of Class I that have 80 votes. The same for the rest of the classes. Like what you present, I should put them into a jpeg with pretty arrows and call that proof.
What is it they do not agree with regarding my Telamon paper? I need someone to show me the errors of my way, cause I have a lot of people who agree with my work.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Bryan - 08-11-2016
At this point I have no desire to debate Pythagorean mathematics with you Steve. RAT has played this game with you before, many others far more educated than myself have poked holes in your theories which destroys your math formulas. and instead of altering your formulas you simply discounted the specific accounts from the primary sources, saying the ancient accounts made the mistake, not you. I'm not about to start it all up again 3-4 years later. Good day mate!
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - JaM - 08-11-2016
Quote:And that is what I wrote in posting #25 of this thread: “But what if the Romans allocated an age division for the levy to each property class, with Class I recruiting the oldest men, and Class V the youngest? In this manner, Class V, being the youngest and more fleet of foot but the poorest would be recruited to serve as velites in the army.”
then why Polybius and Livy both state that Proletarii were not allowed into Legion?
And of course, what i wrote before, wealth and age don't necessarily mix up, just because you are poor, it doesn't automatically mean you are young, and vice versa. You could be a young (18-19) member of a wealthy family (Class I), while you could as well have 40-45 years old poor farmers that would also fit the census.
(anyway if you have some more detailed info on this, preferably exact citations of Polybius or Livy or any other ancient historian, i'd be grateful)
and one different view - technically, members of Triarii, were usually those who had their service almost up. It would make a perfect sense not use such men in the front rank and risking their lives, after all, they are those who will be able to be elected into offices as their military service is completed.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-12-2016
Bryan wrote:
At this point I have no desire to debate Pythagorean mathematics with you Steve. RAT has played this game with you before, many others far more educated than myself have poked holes in your theories which destroys your math formulas. and instead of altering your formulas you simply discounted the specific accounts from the primary sources, saying the ancient accounts made the mistake, not you. I'm not about to start it all up again 3-4 years later. Good day mate!
Good attempt to get out of the kitchen when it gets too hot for you. And get your facts right Bryan, those so called RAT member better educated than you just put up pictures of macabre comical human sacrifices. You have used this rubbish about my theories being disproven and all you related to it that one f*$#ing post that proved nothing. Remember you are the person who told me you look forward to every bad review that my book gets, so you will immediately gravitate to anything disparaging against me, even if it is unsubstantiated.
I’ll soon be posting on academia.edu on how the Roman tribes and the army for the battle of Lake Regillus to show how they interrelate. Looking forward to see how the better educated on this forum and yourself dismiss why the Roman army numbers given by Dionysius and the Roman tribal system are in complete agreement with each other.
Jaroslav wrote:
then why Polybius and Livy both state that Proletarii were not allowed into Legion?
There is confusion among some ancient historians between the proletarii and the capite censi. Some historians (ancient and modern) believe the capite censi are part of the proletarii, that is Class V, and others, they are separate. Dionysius gives six property classes for the Servian constitution, Livy gives five property classes. It is the capite censi which were no levied into the legions, and this is mentioned by Julius Exsuperantius (9) “When he conscripted new soldiers, he was the first general to take into war the "capite censi" ("counted by head"), who were useless and untrustworthy citizens. This was his way of showing his gratitude to the people, who had granted him the honours which he longed for, but it was harmful to the state.”
Jaroslav wrote:
And of course, what i wrote before, wealth and age don't necessarily mix up, just because you are poor, it doesn't automatically mean you are young, and vice versa. You could be a young (18-19) member of a wealthy family (Class I), while you could as well have 40-45 years old poor farmers that would also fit the census.
My research confirms that certain property classes were selected by age. Polybius (6 24) mentions that each of the classes (helokias or class by age) was divided into ten deka. In relation to the proletarii, I know that when they want light infantry, they selected those of a young age, and when they want additional triarii they selected them from the older men among the proletarii. Livy labels the additional triarii as accensi, which I interpret not to mean attendants or servants, but as supports, that is to support the regular triarii.
The paper I will post on academia.edu concerning the tribes and the Roman army of 499 BC in relation to Dionysius’ numbers, clearly shows the Romans levied the proletarii. This is one of many dozen of examples I have. Also the tribal system and the numbers given for the Roman army at Cannae match up, and again the proletarii are levied. Not the same case for the capite censi.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Bryan - 08-12-2016
How is that book coming anyway?
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-12-2016
Bryan wrote:
How is that book coming anyway?
Doing some tidying up, looking into a subject editor, looking into some companies that do battle maps like the ones in Osprey and other publications. All this will be happening in England as they have the expertise. Travelling to England next year to do all of this but only after their winter is over. My idea of cold is 17C, which was a bad enough experience.
However, as I am getting tired of this book dominating my life, there is the real possibility of putting it on the net in pdf format. But my accountant disagrees as publishing it as a book would make a great tax deduction.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Bryan - 08-12-2016
Doesn't online publishing count as getting it published as a book?
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Gunthamund Hasding - 08-12-2016
As long as you get and ISBN should count as published although free
Steve glad to hear your book is progressing
BTW something strikes me in your theory not to be overly critical: The numbers you are using will not set to a normal pyramidal distribution.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-12-2016
Gunthamund wrote:
BTW something strikes me in your theory not to be overly critical: The numbers you are using will not set to a normal pyramidal distribution.
Sorry Gunthamund, I don’t understand what you mean. You have to make allowances for me being a blonde.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Gunthamund Hasding - 08-12-2016
well in normal life the wealth / power will be distributed in an pyramidal distribution: less people at the top have more power (wealth) than lots of people at the bottom
a normal distribution in your case would be (NUMBERS ARE INVENTED)
Class 1_________________111
Class2 ________________11111
Class 3_____________11111111111
Class 4_______111111111111111111111
Hence less people in class 1 and much more in class "n"
and so on so that the basis is much larger than the top
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-12-2016
Gunthamund wrote:
well in normal life the wealth / power will be distributed in an pyramidal distribution: less people at the top have more power (wealth) than lots of people at the bottom.
It all makes sense when you read it all in its content. If you want, would you like to be part of the project and be a reader? All I ask is for feedback, like this section was confusing or things like that. You can give positive feedback as well, like holy Caesar’s ghost, them primary sources are full of overlooked information etc. PM me with you email if you want in and I will send you the first chapter “Rome’s Infancy.” The stuff you are interested in would be chapter four ?Rome’s Lost Vigour” which deals with your period of interest (going by your pictures and kit). But sorry, you have to go through all the chapters first, that way you will understand the whole process.
Let me know...and thanks for restoring my faith in reenactors.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Gunthamund Hasding - 08-12-2016
Steven
I am a poor humble engineer, not sure if my input would be any help for you, moreover I don't have too much time to read will PM you with my email though but I warn you I am kinda more type of the establishment
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - Steven James - 08-12-2016
Gunthamund wrote:
I am a poor humble engineer, not sure if my input would be any help for you, moreover I don't have too much time to read will PM you with my email though but I warn you I am kinda more type of the establishment.
I find in reading anything new that I have to adopt the mindset of a juror that is I must judge by the evidence and not by emotion or sentiment. That way you may come to see the establishment could be wrong.
Already sent.
RE: Roman Army before and after the Marius' Reforms - JaM - 08-12-2016
One thing though - Class I are not the richest guys out there.. Equestrians are. Per your numbers, there were around 12000 men in that group.
Class I to me looks more like today's Upper Middle class of people - well suited with good job, not millionaires but practically a backbone of a society and economy.. In Roman times these would be the families with good prosperous farms.. practically guys who could lose the most if something went wrong and enemies would plunder the countryside, so makes sense they would get involved a lot more, than those who have nothing to lose.. which would explain why Class I is as big as Class II,III and IV combined.
Yet, of course, it also makes sense for young guys from lowest social group to try to gain some renown, maybe even gain some wealth from loot, "to distinguish themselves in front of others".. these young guys would be then motivated to join as light infantry - as i recall these men even challenged enemy warriors to duels in front of the army - which is practically a good way how to get some personal loot i would assume..