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+--- Thread: Silver Squamata? (/showthread.php?tid=25287)
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Silver Squamata? - richsc - 12-04-2015
The Hixenbaugh gallery in New York is offering a large collection of mostly Greek items for sale as well as a few Roman. This one in particular caught my eye: silver scales with the image of Minerva on every one of them.
I was told something similar was posted in RAT some years ago but I have not yet found it.
RE: Silver Squamata? - 66kbm - 12-04-2015
Has anyone any experience of embossed/stamped scales on a Hamata?
Its a big "fraud"....or a "stunning" find.
Kevin
RE: Silver Squamata? - richsc - 12-04-2015
It is always possible that it is a fraud, but I just spoke with gallery owner in New York who is pretty certain it is authentic. Unfortunately it was from a German collection and probably a private find. He mentioned that dredging companies on the Rhine often come up with stuff like complete caligae or other such which is impossible to provenance. This was purchased from a German private collection in the 90's but nothing known before that.
RE: Silver Squamata? - CNV2855 - 12-05-2015
This statuette (http://www.hixenbaugh.net/gallery/detail.cfm?itemnum=6263) looks very similar to the Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca head (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca_head).
Just wondering, what is the general impression for the probability that the Mexican find could actually be authentic? I'd place it around 1 in 3. People have been around for an awfully long period of time, and there's bound to have been some wayward ships that drifted to the Americas. Whether the crew would have survived is another matter entirely, but I'm sure there were at least some amounts of (material) contact.
The fact that we still educate children today that Columbus was the first known European to make the journey, when it's been known for several decades that the Norse settled the area centuries prior, really enforces the need to keep an open mind. ~10,000 years is a very long time, and very unlikely circumstances become much more likely.
It's a damn shame that the scales don't have provenance, but I'm sure someone very familiar with ancient coinage, minting, and embossing could probably give a pretty accurate appraisal of its authenticity. I would also keep the metal content in mind. How much silver was put into the armor, and what not? I imagine that people would be highly unlikely to fake something like this with large amounts of precious metals. You don't need to fake the origin of a gold statue for it to be valuable.
RE: Silver Squamata? - Flavivs Aetivs - 12-05-2015
There was a completely silvered Roman or Bulgar maille hauberk that was found dating to the 10th century, so I don't really see why not. The iron underneath would have rusted away and the silver part of the scales survived.
RE: Silver Squamata? - Alexandr K - 12-05-2015
(12-04-2015, 05:36 PM)richsc Wrote: I was told something similar was posted in RAT some years ago but I have not yet found it.
Silvered scales were found by Mušov-Hradisko (Burgstall) in the Czech Republic. But without any embossed images. See this post.
Greetings,
Alexandr
RE: Silver Squamata? - mcbishop - 12-05-2015
(12-04-2015, 05:36 PM)richsc Wrote: The Hixenbaugh gallery in New York is offering a large collection of mostly Greek items for sale as well as a few Roman. This one in particular caught my eye: silver scales with the image of Minerva on every one of them.
I was told something similar was posted in RAT some years ago but I have not yet found it.
To be honest, I'm mildly peeved that B&C2 is cited on their web page as if we in some way endorse it. We don't. It still looks suspect to me all these years after I first saw pictures of it.
Mike Bishop
RE: Silver Squamata? - John Melfordicus - 12-12-2015
Hi, I have what I believe to be a piece of decorated squamata in my collection, picture attached.
RE: Silver Squamata? - Doc - 12-28-2015
I have seen these scales before on the auction site....Hermann Historica. However, they were made from copper alloy. I do not think the ones shown are silver....maybe tinned. Silver is very soft and does not afford the strength of other metals or alloys known at the time. Not to mention the cost of having an entire shirt made that way. Another important factor is that these scales are REALLY tiny...no more than 1cm from top to bottom. They are also VERY thin and flimsy.
I read somewhere a while ago that they may have been used as a decorative border at the end of armor. I do not know myself only to say they would not really make good armor. There is another armor with tiny thin scales but the scales are woven into a mail backing.
RE: Silver Squamata? - Damianus Albus - 12-30-2015
I don't remember where I read it, but I'm sure someone, somehwere had found silvered bronze or brass (one of those browns colors) squamata but it was used only for ceremonial, not on a battlefield.
RE: Silver Squamata? - caiusbeerquitius - 01-08-2016
What ceremonies? Why would build someone scale armor for a ceremony? How would we know today what it was used for?
RE: Silver Squamata? - Doc - 01-09-2016
I have to agree with Christian. I doubt that anyone would build scale armor just for show. I guess that in the absurd one could consider doing so but in reality the amount of work to produce a squamata would make it unlikely.
I built my own squamata, totally by hand including making the scales, fire tinning them and punching out the holes. Then I linked them to each other and sewed them on a linen backing. I did not use any machines but tried as best I can to simulate all manual labor. It is a daunting task........so......I tell anyone, if you would like to figure it out for yourself if scale armor was made for battle or ceremonies, try making one.
I too thought at first ceremonial amor until I made my own.
I understand Damian that you read it was for ceremonies but for your own personal growth, attempt making a small piece and you will see.
Cheers
RE: Silver Squamata? - Damianus Albus - 01-09-2016
Well, if you are emperor or some king of high magistri, you don't make it on your own.
You have army or blacksmiths who have army of slaves below them.
This squamata was made from some "bronze" metal becasue it's catching silver quite well. If it was brass then battle utility would be very limited since it's very soft metal.
They made Arcs for ceremonies. I see no reason why they could not make squamata for ceremonies as well.
RE: Silver Squamata? - caiusbeerquitius - 01-09-2016
Errrm. Arches were not erected for ceremonies, but for representation. Brass is not necessarily softer than bronze, it depends on the bronze alloy and on the amount of zinc in the brass. Doc´s argument was about how laborious it is to make such an armor in general, certainly it was evident to him that this work would have been made by craftsmen and not by emperors. Slaves probably mostly not, as their work was more expensive than that of craftsmen. However this has as such nothing to with the question whether such an item would have been used exclusively for "ceremonies". What ceremonies required the wearing of scale armor in the Roman Empire or Republic? I know of none. One could possibly argue that Roman officials used silver sets of armor, perhaps with partial gilding, when in the field or when in military service. Since they might have been, rarely, in an actual fight these items still would have served their original purpose besides their high representational value. So again, what ceremonies do you mean?
Doc wrote: "They are also VERY thin and flimsy. " Most of the 3rd century scales are. In regard of the decoration that is where I´d put them chronologically. They were hardened in a special way, as D. Sim has shown. The major armour would have probably been the backing, with the scales helping to glance impacts off, and being nice. From the first pics I saw of these special scales I got the impression that they were the rim decoration of a regular set of scales, in two or three rows, IIRC. AFAIK these are finds of from the Balkans which moved over dubious ways to Munich and then were labelled "From an old collection" as happens all the time. Again, no context leaves us puzzled about them.
We would need a spectral analysis to see if they are genuine, anyway. I think they are, though.
RE: Silver Squamata? - Damianus Albus - 01-09-2016
I have no idea which ceremonials excalty. I just said what I read few months ago.