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+--- Thread: Segmentata mail hybrid (/showthread.php?tid=25080)
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Segmentata mail hybrid - Doc - 08-27-2015
Hello Everyone,
Years ago Dan Peterson in his book on Roman legions, had a reconstruction on the last page of a cavalrymen wearing what appears to be segmental shoulder plates attached to a mail hauberk underneath.
If memory serves me correctly, there is a sculpture showing this exact armor.
Does anyone have the picture from Dan's book or any other original source or photos of this armor.
Has an actual artifact ever been found where mail is attached to shoulder plates.
Thanks
Segmentata mail hybrid - Crispvs - 08-27-2015
The reconstruction shown in Dan Peterson's book is based on an interpretation of a series of reliefs from Arlon dating to the mid first century AD, which show cavalry.
http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/junkel-2.jpg
The shoulder detail has been interpreted by some as segmentata shoulder pieces, due to its superficial resemblance to the latter. However, if it is meant to represent segmentata, then we must ask why only three plates are shown on each shoulder, when the physical evidence for segmentata indicates that there should be five. Personally, based on comparisons with cavalry stelae from Britain and the Rhineland, I favour Mike Bishop's interpretation in Lorica Segmentata 1, where he suggests that they are actually intended to represent mail shoulder doubling which features the folded over 'collar' (the inner 'plate') so often seen on the stelae, with a crude representation of the leather edging of the doubling (the outer 'plate').
There is little doubt that it is possible to attach segmentata shoulders to a mail shirt, but the question is: is that what the Romans did? With the sole piece of evidence for it being so open to interpretation, I feel it is something we might still debate, but should certainly refrain from reconstructing and showing to the public as a possibility which they would assume was a fact.
Crispvs
Segmentata mail hybrid - Dan Howard - 08-27-2015
Agreed. It is more likely to be representing mail shoulder doublings rather than segmented plate.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Doc - 08-28-2015
Thank you for the responses. That is an interesting point by M.C Bishop, however, I am not sure I agree with the fact that those are folds with a leather edge. Other stela with mail clearly show a doubler and leather edge. When I look at that picture, to me, those lines are three separate sections of similar size and going from the torso to the arm, they get shorter.....as in segmentata. T.C depictions of a seggie are also not correct entirely and yet........
I know on one of those depictions that a doubler is envisioned with a spear going through the center making it look like two pieces. However, when looking at the depiction to the right, again to me, there are three clear sections.
I am not intending on reproducing this armor. However, on the Roma Victrix website, there is a picture where the shoulders have been interpreted to be scale with the lower torso in seggie plates. As I was looking through the Peterson book today, I came across the photo of the seggie with the mail bottom. So, I thought that there was solid merit.
Dan, in speaking with Erik long ago, he mentioned there was some sort of physical evidence for this type of armor.
One thing though, I do not think we can categorically say any longer if the Romans would have done certain things or not..........it is obvious to me that any combination of existing armor would have been possible if not likely even in the absence of actual artifacts. I for one still do things according to the actual evidence and do not venture into the realm of possibility as my first statement of this paragraph suggests. However, I am slowly getting away from this very narrow view that nothing else is possible because this is what we only have.
Maybe its because I am a chemist and know things are a certain way not because I observed them directly but because the surrounding evidence suggests a strong possibility.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Dan Howard - 08-28-2015
If you are going to reinforce mail armour the first place will be the chest where you are most vulnerable. Shoulder reinforcement is well down the list of priorities.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Renatus - 08-28-2015
Quote:If you are going to reinforce mail armour the first place will be the chest where you are most vulnerable. Shoulder reinforcement is well down the list of priorities.Surely not in the case of cavalry, where the shoulders would be most vulnerable to a downward stroke from a spatha or equivalent long-sword.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Frank - 08-28-2015
My understanding was, that one advantage of a segmentata compared to hamata was protection against blunt damage. Assuming both are used with a good subarmalis.
If this is true, plate at the shoulder strengthening the hamata makes more sense than another layer of hamata. But just for an infantrist, who is vulnerable for blunt damage at his shoulders while his stomach is greatly protected by his scutum.
Of course that does not help in the case of the cavalrist depicted here. But please correct me if my assumption about plate, mail and shoulders is wrong.
I also have read, that there is some archaeologic evidence, that already during Caesars war in Gaul, some legionaries might have used a kind of hybrid. But I don't remember the details.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Erik D. Schmid - 08-28-2015
This is what Doc is referring to:
[attachment=12702]hybridabove.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=12703]hybridunder.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=12704]hybridright.jpg[/attachment]
Segmentata mail hybrid - Doc - 08-29-2015
That is an interesting piece.....would have been awesome at some point.
It appears that just the neck and trap muscles are under plate while the rest has mail drooping over the sides and front.
I would love to see this reproduced
Segmentata mail hybrid - Dan Howard - 08-29-2015
Quote:This is what Doc is referring to:What is the context? Where was it found? It looks extraordinarily thick and heavy. Could it be something other than body armour? What does the inscription say? It looks Greek, not Latin. How do we know it is Roman?
Segmentata mail hybrid - Ioannes - 08-30-2015
I can't translate Greek, but I think it says "OPLALLLILIOO." Obviously not a single word, but it could be some shortened words mashed together. Can anyone translate this? I'm actually interested.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Caratacus - 09-13-2015
The other type of "compound armour" is the one displayed on a statue from Alba Iulia in Romania. This one is much less open to 'interpretation' than the Arlon offering. It's quite clear that the lorica segmentata has been modified in several ways. For instance, there are far fewer girdle plates, seemingly only 3. This would make them at least twice as deep as the 'regular' armour. It is also clear that there is some sort of scale armour on the shoulders. Up till now there have been no actual discoveries of such armour. However, I gather that there is some possibility that armour found at Leon in Spain comparatively recently may have included a suit of the Alba Iulia modifications. This has not been published as yet and (in the way of such things) it may take several years to get into print. It's only recently that the "sliding rivet" back plate from Gamala has been published, and that was unearthed some considerable time ago.
I would say that the main importance of the Alba Iulia statue is that it indicates that the Romans did occasionally (at least) use non-standard equipment.
I've added a recent picture of the Alba Iulia statue here.
Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)
Segmentata mail hybrid - Doc - 09-14-2015
Hello Mike,
Thank you for the information. I have long believed that just about anything is possible with respect to armor. That any combination is not far fetched PROVIDED that the equipment used to make some of these odd hybrids is what was available at the time. I am not advocating to equip an entire legion or even a cohort in the manner of the statue BUT it would be nice to have one soldier dressed that way as the one off........which the armor was.
Segmentata mail hybrid - Urselius - 09-15-2015
OP. MAMILIO Q. L - a name and possibly status or rank - Mamilius an old Latin name (eg. Octavius Mamilius an early leader of Tusculum).
Segmentata mail hybrid - Doc - 09-15-2015
That is intersting....however does it specify it could be Roman.....