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+--- Thread: Fullers and spatha hilts (/showthread.php?tid=24902)
Fullers and spatha hilts - 1493541 - 07-04-2015
Salvete!
I have this weird idea that most Late Roman spathae had one or more fullers and hilts like classic Pompeii gladii. I can only find pictures of Late Roman spathae from manufacturers like Deepeeka and Albion or posts from other people on RAT. The Albion Decurio is my romantic idea of what a Late Roman spatha should look like, although I am not sure how historically accurate it is. Most of the pictures I see on RAT look like dark-age swords to me. So were there some spathae with Oakeshott style blades? And what materials would the hilt be made out of and what shape would they have been on a 4th century spatha? Also would Late Roman spathae be the same for both infantry and cavalry, or would calvalry ones have something like a rounded tip?
Fullers and spatha hilts - Urselius - 07-05-2015
There are many varieties of blade and hilt-form in Late Roman spathas. Some hilts did resemble earlier Roman sword hilts, both spatha and gladius. Unless a sword is found in an archaeological context, say associated with horse harness, of obvious cavalry origins it is impossible to assign a cavalry or infantry origin to it. It is unsafe to ascribe swords with hilts dissimilar from earlier Roman types to non-Roman manufacture (archaeological deposition factors taken into account). The Romans, along with the Persians and Germanic peoples, seem to have been reacting to and copying elements from Steppe (Sarmatian etc.) sword designs at much the same time.
Fullers are just one way of producing a lightening of blade weight without compromising strength/resilience. Use of a medial rib, and hollow grinding a diamond cross-section blade are other methods.
Fullers and spatha hilts - Nathan Ross - 07-05-2015
I asked a similar sort of question about hilts in particular here.
It appears that the only 3rd or 4th century swords known from a definite Roman context are the Koln and Durostorum spathae, both probably late 3rd. Your 'decurio' is roughly based on the Koln; there's a drawing of the Durostorum here, and pictures of both on the thread I linked above.
The swords from Illerup, Nydam and Podlodow in Poland have Roman blades, but I think the hilts are usually assumed to be local manufacture. However, based on artistic representations from tombstones, I tend to suspect that many of the hilt forms we believe to be 'Germanic' or 'Migration era' may actually be Roman, or based on earlier Roman models. Until something new turns up in the ground, though, that's just speculation!
Fullers and spatha hilts - Urselius - 07-05-2015
Some interesting Late Roman sword hilts are illustrated in two ivory diptychs, both c. 400AD.
Emperor Honorius:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Consular_diptych_Probus_406.jpg
Flavius Stilicho:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stilico_diptych.jpg
Both have bar-like guards and 'bar-and-ball' pommels. They are unlike typical earlier Roman hilts (though somewhat similar to the 'ring hilted' swords).
They remind me of this steppe style sword - possibly hunnic:
http://www.royalathena.com/media/Medieval/GL0901.jpg
Fullers and spatha hilts - 1493541 - 07-05-2015
Thanks for the info guys!
Fullers and spatha hilts - Flavivs Aetivs - 07-05-2015
That sword isn't 5th century Hunnic, although it's always identified as such I've never seen any evidence to support that and doesn't fit known Hunnic blade typologies.
I think it probably dates to at least the early 7th Century.
Although I do agree that Honorius and Stilicho both have Iranic (Alan) blades via Hunnic/Alan influence. Probably something more like this:
http://sword-site.com/thread/207/gold-bejeweled-migration-era-sword
I can't remember what find that is, but it's in Maenchen-Helfen, along with the Altlussheim and a few other Hunnic blades.
Fullers and spatha hilts - Urselius - 07-05-2015
Yes, there is no provenance for the alleged Hunnic sword I linked to, but it is the only sword I have seen with even a vaguely similar pommel shape to the diptych images.
The other leaf of the ivory shows Honorius bearing an eagle-headed sword with, apparently, no guard:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/9cdc36e81878b5f67795a680ab1fd3f9/tumblr_n59g7gCnRz1tndp2qo1_1280.jpg
I think that all the swords shown in the ivories are of Roman manufacture, but with differing levels of steppe influence. The very full wide grips, which swell towards the guard, look like a feature not commonly seen on attested Sarmatian or Hunnic swords.
Fullers and spatha hilts - Medicus matt - 07-05-2015
Quote:The swords from Illerup, Nydam and Podlodow in Poland have Roman blades,
I realise that this may take us down a bit of a rabbit hole, but isn't this just an assumption?
I've studied the Danish bog blades at some length and with the exception of one blade which has a well executed 'Mercury' figure inlaid in it, I see no evidence that the blades are of Roman manufacture.
Given that the vast majority of pattern welded blade finds of the late imperial period are from the Barbaricum, is there any real evidence that these blades are of Imperial manufacture or indeed that the fabricae were producing decorative pattern welded blades at all?
Fullers and spatha hilts - Nathan Ross - 07-05-2015
Quote:isn't this just an assumption?... is there any real evidence that these blades are of Imperial manufacture or indeed that the fabricae were producing decorative pattern welded blades at all?
It probably is an assumption, yes! I haven't studied swords to any extent, but whenever the Danish blades are mentioned there seems to be some connection, either inferred or explicit, to Roman sword patterns. I believe one of the Podlodow blades also had figures of Mars and Victory (?) as well.
How many late imperial blades have been found within an identifiably Roman context though?
Fullers and spatha hilts - Luka Borščak - 07-06-2015
I was always under impression that there is no lack of decorative pattern welding among roman made swords... Here is one from archeological museum in Zagreb, Croatia.
![[Image: 20150326_162432_zpsw8eiou5x.jpg]](http://s153.photobucket.com/user/lukaborscak/media/20150326_162432_zpsw8eiou5x.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150326_162444_zpsclvuwfcr.jpg]](http://s153.photobucket.com/user/lukaborscak/media/20150326_162444_zpsclvuwfcr.jpg.html)
![[Image: 20150326_162716_zpsq2cgw08w.jpg]](http://s153.photobucket.com/user/lukaborscak/media/20150326_162716_zpsq2cgw08w.jpg.html)