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+--- Thread: Leuween pugio (/showthread.php?tid=24399)
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Leuween pugio - munazio planco - 10-31-2014
Avete omnes
A my reproduction of the Leuween pugio,scabbard and handle in bronze.
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Leuween pugio - Robert - 10-31-2014
Nice piece, but I would not consider it a reproduction of the Leeuwen Pugio, as it is a bit far removed from the original. A pity about the artistic licence, a craftsman like you could have got it perfect, with the dotted stips soldered on and all. There are excellent pictures of the original to be found on internet, even here: http://www.romanobritain.org/8-military/mil_roman_soldier_dagger.htm#.VFPDfk0tDcs .
Leuween pugio - munazio planco - 10-31-2014
Robert
You have absolutly right,in fact on the original the points on the scabbard were soldered(maeby the scabbard was casted).but I whant be sincerous do a scabbard like that is really to expansive.I did one scabbard in the correct way in the past but was really expansive.
This sistem is a accettable sistem for have the same effect( maeby not the same)
Anyway you have reason and all the critics i take whit happyness because are need for grown up.in the picture the scabbard i did some years ago whit the correct points.
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Leuween pugio - 66kbm - 10-31-2014
That's a fair point Robert, not Historically correct, but pretty damn accurate. Without wanting to go into the realms of Pugio "correctness"....Not quite accurate down to the rivets/compared to the Indian offerings that we have, as re-enactors, for an option. I think that this Pugio and others made by Munanzio are the in between that we are searching for from Indian basics through to the realms of the equivalent of here..http://replik-online.de/en/index.html post this for a price comparison, that's all.
Well my Pugion is going to be made by this chap.
Kevin
Leuween pugio - Robert - 10-31-2014
In the Roman times, the soldier buying a pugio for himself would have also faced budgitairy constraints. I will keep Indian crap out of the discussion, but if you are limited by budget, there is the option of choising a less eleborate, but accurate pugio reproduction for a craftsman like Munazio to make. The book Pugio - Gladius Brevis Est describes a good many pugiones and could be regarded, certainly on the basis of the typology offered, as the Miks for pugiones. Here, there is not one example of a pugio with a sheath made in this manner. There are those with the lines of the simple decoration inscribed into the front plate. Munazio calls it a "reproduction of the Leeuwen pugio", but it is not, for it uses a totaly different style of manufacture and also one not documented in archeological record.
Incidently, I have seen very good pictures of the Leeuwen pugio, the strips soldered on do not even appear to have been cast, the dots seem to have been filed or chisseled on D shaped strips of metal prior to these being soldered on.
Leuween pugio - 66kbm - 10-31-2014
Slightly off subject...but, I appreciate all you are saying and yes Robert I have in my possession, for a limited time, Gladius Brevis Est....blagged from the Major, as good as this reproduction is and it shows the work that can be put into such an item, my interest is in the work that this man can do in another form of Pugio/Scabbard. The work is great and so is the quality. One cannot deny that. OK, a reproduction is not a Replica, but a very good example of something very close too that.
It depends on ones budget and purpose for such an item. Yes its nice to have a 1500 Euro Pugio hanging from ones belt, but it does not really do anything...but to be put alongside an original in a museum then it has to be of that quality..
If a decent replica is needed for Re-enactment, then that does not have to be of the same quality. None of us would be able to afford to do our hobby else. As long as it meets requirements. Most Indian gear does not, but most buy that gear and do not adapt/rectify it.
My new Pugio /scabbard are coming from this man...Exeter type. No one else would undertake the task, so good on him even if a few things are different/slightly inaccurate.
Kevin
Leuween pugio - munazio planco - 11-01-2014
When a person like me decide to made a reconstruction of a roman repert have to choose:
If somebody contact me and whant a exact,absoluty exact copy of a repert and have not limit of money for give me the possibility to do a perfect reconstruction i do a perfect reconstruction.
If I have to do a reconstructin whit a small budget i have to find a tecnic for made the same result whitout use the very complicate tecnic that could cost much more.
In know very well that in particolar this reconstruction is not a exact copy but ,this is my opinion,is a very similar copy of the leuween and the final effect is the same whit the decoration of the scabbard. But if we whant be absolutly precisious Robert have right it is not a perfect copy of the leuween.
So if I have to do a reconstruction of a difficult repert and i have not big budget i prove to use different tecnic for have the same effect because i whant give the possibility to the reenactors to have a copy of a famous repert whitout spend too much.
For the real decoration of the scabbard of the leuween I am not surethat the points were soldered,in my opinion it was made in cast.
Leuween pugio - Robert - 11-01-2014
No, I just checked with the museum collection and it clearly says the strips were soldered on.
The handle is iron, the guard is decorated bronze.
Leuween pugio - leonardod - 11-01-2014
Robert; if the piece is this one you linked, the hilt looks bronze.
http://www.romanobritain.org/8-military/kit/daggers/orig_pugio_leeuwen.jpg
Leuween pugio - Robert - 11-01-2014
Which is why it is a good thing to check the sources and documentation of finds, instead of going by looks, as those can be deceptive. A picture with or without flash can make a lot of difference, for instance. Same problem with Miks, people look at drawings, but do not master German, causing misinterpretation as they can not read the accompanying texts.
Leuween pugio - leonardod - 11-01-2014
![[Image: orig_pugio_leeuwen.jpg]](http://www.romanobritain.org/8-military/kit/daggers/orig_pugio_leeuwen.jpg)
Let me clear things : Are you saying that the hilt is made with grip and guard as separate pieces and that the guard is bronze and hilt is iron?
Leuween pugio - Robert - 11-01-2014
http://www.rmo.nl/collectie/zoeken?object=e+1931%2f2.21
IJzeren dolk (Scott type B) met bijbehorende bronzen schede (Scott type A). Nagenoeg compleet en in zeer goede staat. De dolkkling is gewelfd zoals ook Mainz-type gladii en voorzien van bloedgeulen. Het ijzeren gevest heeft op het kruisstuk een timpaan- vormige bronzen versiering met geparelde rand. De schede loopt uit in een schijf en is versierd met opgesoldeerde geparelde bronzen strips. Aan weerszijden 2 gevorkte draagbeugels met ringen daarin. Beugels vastgezet aan de schede met 3 bronzen nagels elk, met sierkoppen. De originele middelste bevestigingsnagel van de onderste draagbeugel links op de schede ontbreekt.
Iron dagger (Scott type B) with accompanying bronze scabbard (Scott type A). Nearly complete and in very good condition. The daggerblade is waisted as in the Mainz-type gladii and has fullers (well, it says bloodgrooves). The IRON handle has a timpaan-shaped bronze decoration with a pearled edge. The scabbard ends in a disk and is decorated with soldered pearled bronze strips. On either side 2 forked carrying mounts with rings. Mounts are attached to the scabbard with three bronze rivits each, with decorative heads. The original middle rivit of the lower carrying mount left side of the scabbard is missing.
Your picture shows the undecorated back side of the pugio. I have translated the tekst as accuratly as I could. So yes, this is what the RMO museum site says about that piece.
Leuween pugio - munazio planco - 11-01-2014
I ask myself how is possible 100% be sure that one piece is soldered or casted...is good believe what the museum write about the handle but I hope that this sentence come not only after only a visual interpretation of the materials but after a serious analysis of the metals.My experience whit the museums teach me that very often they do not good interpretations about the reperts or superficials interpretations.this will be not this case i am sure but happen.
Leuween pugio - leonardod - 11-02-2014
The other side picture also looks completely made of bronze.
Museum descriptions are not always right, some are old, some were made by people without the proper material knowledge.
What do you think about it, Robert? Is this pugio´s hilt made from bronze sheet or from an iron one?
BTW there is ways to see if it is soldered or cast. You only need a little flaw in the soldering to expose it, without going to etchings . Looks soldered to me. The strips look very regular, no need to do them that way if they are part of a mould.
Leuween pugio - Crispianus - 11-02-2014
Sometimes you just need to visit and see an item for yourself, I'd say both daggers were quite acceptable and within the bounds of probable variation, though "in the style of" rather then exact copies.... In my experience its rare that reports give all the details you really need for a really good copy of almost anything and photos can create their own problems, in short the only way to be certain is too compare the item with MKI Eyeball side by side with the original
mile: Just my 2 cents ;-)