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Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - MagnusStultus - 10-11-2014
Did Romans charge their soldiers the full price of the armor or was it just a minor pay deduction about equivalent to the deductions I had in the Navy?
I.e. would a Roman Soldier hope to be issued Lorica Segmentata or Scale over Mail due to the cost or was the deduction more of an afterthought? I never complained about the deduction in pay learned about after basic training but had I been charged the equivalent of buying a house, that would have annoyed me, and I'm wondering if the case of a Roman soldier was more someone permanently in debt to the state or just having a minor deduction and that being the end of it.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Youngster - 10-11-2014
If I recall correctly, the Vindolanda tablets contain some first hand proof of pay deductions. They are available here:
http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/4DLink2/4DACTION/WebRequestBrowse?searchType=browse&searchField=general&webRequestBrowseResubmit=0&submit=Subject
I browsed through but I can't find it. Maybe if you take some time, you will have better luck. Other members may also have other sources on pay deductions.
However, I don't think that you can have a real answer to your question without knowing exactly how much the equipment really "costs." Mass production in the Roman era was not exactly like modern factory production, but i was not as local and small scale as the in the early medieval period. I don't know if any records of the contracts that military made with manufacturers survives.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Youngster - 10-11-2014
If I recall correctly, the Vindolanda tablets contain some first hand proof of pay deductions. They are available here:
http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/4DLink2/4DACTION/WebRequestBrowse?searchType=browse&searchField=general&webRequestBrowseResubmit=0&submit=Subject
I browsed through but I can't find it. Maybe if you take some time, you will have better luck. Other members may also have other sources on pay deductions.
However, I don't think that you can have a real answer to your question without knowing exactly how much the equipment really "costs." Mass production in the Roman era was exactly like modern factory production. I don't know if any records of the contracts that military made with manufacturers survives.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - MagnusStultus - 10-11-2014
Thanks for the link; I am searching for a pay deduction in an online text now (the Nicopolis Papyri would be a good example but I can't find it online) although for just a mailshirt in Anglo-Saxon England you could instead get 26 pigs or 52 sheep; which in an agricultural society seems high to me to need to purchase from legionary pay.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Dan Howard - 10-11-2014
Quote:Thanks for the link; I am searching for a pay deduction in an online text now (the Nicopolis Papyri would be a good example but I can't find it online) although for just a mailshirt in Anglo-Saxon England you could instead get 26 pigs or 52 sheep; which in an agricultural society seems high to me to need to purchase from legionary pay.I'm inclined to think that the cost of military equipment in the Roman army was significantly less than in early medieval England. Economies of scale would come into play and they seem to have had more advanced metalcrafting technologies.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Youngster - 10-11-2014
Quote:I'm inclined to think that the cost of military equipment in the Roman army was significantly less than in early medieval England. Economies of scale would come into play and they seem to have had more advanced metalcrafting technologies.
I agree. Production centers were apparently larger and more centralized than in anglo-saxon England. There was also heavy use of slave labor, which should reduce the cost of unskilled labor. This should make tedious tasks such as assembling mail and scale shirts less expensive. Roman metallurgy also allowed for better steel, which should make cheaper armor like segmentata possible. Also, manufactories would (at least in theory) have to sell at competitive prices to get the army to purchase; one would assume that their would be some sort of bulk discount. All that said, I'd be surprised of military contracts were not often corrupt, leading to increased costs.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Crispianus - 10-12-2014
Whilst I dont claim to have any special knowledge of this, my understanding is that deductions for one thing or another made up a large proportion of a soldier yearly pay, if the details in these two articles is correct, possibly as much as 75% of the total....
http://www.academicroom.com/article/roman-military-pay-caesar-diocletian
http://www.academicroom.com/article/roman-army-pay-scales
a good deal of the discussion seems to be based on a tome called:
"Roman military records on papyrus" by R.O.Fink 1971
Philological monographs, no. 26.
my impression for armour is that this is a hire, depreciation and maintenance deduction rather then a hire/purchase fee..... but its just an impression, the cost of other items or at least the deductions taken from the soldiers pay may be more certain, such as food, clothing and shoes as these would be regularly consumed or worn out..... the army apparently set the rates.
Hope this is of some use, if anyone knows of a good source book for Roman commerce I would be most interested....
According to Lawson "Cnut" pg37, a mail shirt cost 7 pounds sterling (so presumable 7 pounds of silver?) in normandy in the 1040s.... apparently there were 24,000 in London in 1016 which would be worth 50-60,000 pounds, a national assessment for england would result in around 10,000 shirts at 8 hides to one mail shirt.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-13-2014
According to Merovingian Law in the 6th century AD, when some of the Roman arms factories were probably still operational, a Maile shirt was 12 solidi. According to A.D. Lee, the standard pay of a late 4th century Comitatensian infantryman was 36 Solidi per Annum, of which 30 Solidi was deducted for equipment, food, etc.
These two figures can be found respectively in Guy Halsall's Warfare in the Barbarian West and A.D. Lee's War in Late Antiquity, a Social History.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Gunthamund Hasding - 10-13-2014
a very interesting paper about the roman pay scales can be found here:
https://www.academia.edu/1483788/Roman_Army_Pay_Scales._In_M._A._Speidel_Heer_und_Herrschaft_im_Romischen_Reich_der_Hohen_Kaiserzeit_Stuttgart_2009_349-380
and something here in German if you can read german
https://www.academia.edu/1483844/Sold_und_Wirtschaftslage_der_romischen_Soldaten._In_M._A._Speidel_Heer_und_Herrschaft_im_Romischen_Reich_der_Hohen_Kaiserzeit_Stuttgart_2009_407-437
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Crispianus - 10-13-2014
A Doctoral E-Thesis by R.W.Davies "Peace-time routine in the Roman army " seems quite useful for pay and deductions and quite a lot else....
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/8075/
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Vindex - 10-13-2014
Almost all of Davies' papers add value to Roman logistics. (I say "almost" because if I declared just "all" someone would crop up with a different reference
)
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - MagnusStultus - 10-25-2014
Thank you all for the information; but on reading it one thing I wonder about is; did the legionary have to pay for his armor to be repaired? I am asking because the frequency of lose scale finds would indicate anyone issued scale armor would have a very expensive maintenance problem.
Pay deductions of a Roman Soldier for armor - Bryan - 10-25-2014
Quote:Thank you all for the information; but on reading it one thing I wonder about is; did the legionary have to pay for his armor to be repaired? I am asking because the frequency of lose scale finds would indicate anyone issued scale armor would have a very expensive maintenance problem.
How hard is scale armor to repair? After the 10th time a scale or two fall off, I think the owner of a scale cuirass would learn how to fix it himself versus seeking out an armor or smith.