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+--- Thread: linothorax and other white cuirases (/showthread.php?tid=24317)
linothorax and other white cuirases - ValentinianVictrix - 10-09-2014
Xavi, if textile or leather cuirasses existed I suspect that they were only worn by officers for ceremonial purposes. There is the Honorius dyptych that appears to show him wearing a cuirasse that is visibily bending and if is not a case for artistic licence then I would assume its a ceremonial piece of armour, meant to look impressive but not to be worn on the battlefield.
You would have more success trying to convince people that Roman infantry wore cuirasses rather than mail hauberk's in this instance.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-09-2014
I will love to see a complete Greek or Roman cuirass of metal, "real armour", subjected with laces.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Dan Howard - 10-09-2014
One way of using laces is to thread it through tie rings.
![[Image: Bronze_cuirass_BM_GR1873.8-20.223.jpg]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Bronze_cuirass_BM_GR1873.8-20.223.jpg)
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-09-2014
Usually all Greek cuirasses have both, rings and hinges. I will like to see more pictures of this cuirass.
Do you know the museum it comes from or where to see more pictures of it?
linothorax and other white cuirases - Crispianus - 10-09-2014
Just a few observations...
As has been said its not unusual for a metal thorax to be laced...
Moulding in a soft flexible material would be a problem unless it was hardened as part of the process otherwise it wouldn't hold the shape...
Hinges are unnecessary on flexible material.....
A folded or rolled/rouletted edge at the joins etc could indicate a metal thorax...
White can represent silver or any "white" metal or silvered finish....
So if its moulded and has hinges etc the logical conclusion is its made from an inflexible material...
I think though you could make a Heroic parade armour from several layers of fine linen glued together moulded and stiffened except for the shoulders which remains flexible, the external surface could be covered with fine white aluta using a flexible glue, finely the decorations could be added from say embossed metal or leather..... :grin:
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-09-2014
You can see here:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7tx2_Hwy6xQ/TpMykNgbS1I/AAAAAAAAAIo/CeEV5Fpq-EU/s1600/Bronz+Hoplit+Z%25C4%25B1rh%25C4%25B1.jpg
Also lacks upper hinges...
linothorax and other white cuirases - Dan Howard - 10-09-2014
Quote:Usually all Greek cuirasses have both, rings and hinges. I will like to see more pictures of this cuirass.There are dozens and dozens of them. That is just the first I found after ten seconds of using google. The earliest ones date back to the Bronze Age. Here are some more
Do you know the museum it comes from or where to see more pictures of it?
![[Image: gw-artefact-bronze-cuirass.jpg]](http://www.timetrips.co.uk/gw-artefact-bronze-cuirass.jpg)
![[Image: mil0005.jpg]](http://ancientrome.ru/art/artwork/military/italy/mil0005.jpg)
![[Image: 13b_bronze_anatomical_cuirass_south_ital...1024x0.jpg]](http://www.mouginsmusee.com/img/art-objects/60/13b_bronze_anatomical_cuirass_south_italic_panoply_1024x0.jpg)
![[Image: DSCN4500.jpg]](http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz139/Ojibwa/Ancient%20Greece/Greek%20Art/DSCN4500.jpg)
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-09-2014
Images 1 and 2 show hinges.
The hinges, when welded are very often lost.
In this picture you can see the hinges and the holes for the rings
http://periklisdeligiannis.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/metropolitan-museum-of-art.jpg
This are some examples of welded hinges, many partially lost:
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/gr/mobile-large/DP119650.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/29/d6/fe/29d6fed5bc30d411d1b944e9c7d70810.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Museo_archeologico_regionale_paolo_orsi,_corazza_in_bronzo,_da_tomba_5_necropoli_della_fossa,_370-340_ac._01.JPG
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details/collection_image_gallery.aspx?assetId=20058&objectId=399850&partId=1
The cuirases will move if they don have some kind of propper lock.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Dan Howard - 10-09-2014
Of course it moves. The slight flexibility provided by the lacing makes it more comfortable. I personally own a bronze cuirass that is secured with nothing except tie rings and lacings of goat leather. There are dozens and dozens of these cuirasses (with no trace of hinges at all) in various collections. Talk to people who have made reconstructions of these armours. Talk to people who have actually worn them. Stop looking at pictures until you are familiar with how armour functions. You won't be able to correctly interpret the iconographical evidence until you do.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-10-2014
Hi Dan
If hinges were not necessary, will be hard to understand why most of them have it along with rings.
I know about bronze, because of my work.
Bronce can not be welded melting it, To weld you have to use some other material like silver that works as a glue. When the piece comes out by corrosion, it does not leave any signal.
Bronce also is prone to "material fatigue" breaking often when subject to stress. Rings where probably an emergency subjection system.
Thats why they come along with hinges, to be use when propper hinges brake, until they can be repeared. This will explain the disapearance of ring with the introduction of iron in the armours, who is much more resistant.
Is not the same to walk arround with a cuirass than have a month campaing, walking, and running. I don´t know if you have had military trining, but is not much space left to arrange your items when marching or making a bayonet charge.
Also a "flexible joint like these, will open gaps in the cuirass, that can be a unpleasant surprise.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Dan Howard - 10-10-2014
Most of them don't have both rings and hinges. You haven't looked at a very large sample.
Modern bronzes are not the same as ancient bronzes. TIn-bronze has completely different mechanical properties compared to the silicon-bronzes used today.
The breast and back plate overlap when they join together. They don't open up to create gaps.
I've only continued to participate in this thread so other readers don't start to believe this nonsense but I think I'm done now. People have been doing this research for decades. If you refuse to listen then I'm afraid I can't help any further.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Alanus - 10-10-2014
Quote:I know about bronze, because of my work.
Bronze can not be welded melting it, To weld you have to use some other material like silver that works as a glue.
Excuse me. ;-)
I don't give a damn about cuirases or what color they were. BUT!-- ancient bronze-smiths (way back in the days of the Sintashta Culture) could weld bronze directly to iron, forming bi-metal objects. These included daggers, axes, and swords. The ancient Chinese welded bronze to pure tin, also creating bi-metal swords.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-10-2014
Hi to both.
If you try to weld bronze with bronze you will end up with a hole. The normal procedure is to use a low temperature melting alloy (like silver alloy) tu use as a joining "glue".
No one knows how many pieces you have seen but, many of them show both: hinges and rings, something that has not a logical explanation if rings are such a good joining system.
Hi Alanus
What you are pointing is exactly what I was pointing, you can pour melted bronze to another metal, but not with same bronze.
About the quality and resistance of bronze, history shows the replacement by iron in many items, because its better flexion and stress properties.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Dan D'Silva - 10-10-2014
Xavi, the term you are looking for is soldering, not welding.
Also I'm having a hard time understanding what this has to do with determining what material the cuirass is made of.
linothorax and other white cuirases - Xavi - 10-10-2014
Thanks Dan. Is related to the joining system of prima porta