+- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat)
+-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: Marching and Footwear (/showthread.php?tid=24160)
Marching and Footwear - Vindex - 08-24-2014
I get the football stud analogy, but it isn't going to account for the wear on the hob nailed soles, though.
(Just being devil's advocate, really).
"Did the Roman Army march on Roman style roads outside of established Roman territory during campaigns of conquest such as in Gaul, Germany and Britain?"
My assumption is that since the Romans did most of the road building in this part of the world, the answer would be, no.
Marching and Footwear - Graham Sumner - 08-24-2014
Hi Moi
"I get the football stud analogy, but it isn't going to account for the wear on the hob nailed soles, though."
Well as I basically said when I was in the ESG, displays were primarily on grass, sometimes on modern surfaces and only very rarely on anything approaching a Roman road and yet the boots wore out fairly regularly.
I did not experience it first hand but apparently during a filming event with some Celtic re-enactors who were wearing leather boots without hobnails, while they found it hard to keep their footing during a mêlée the 'Romans' of course did not.
""Did the Roman Army march on Roman style roads outside of established Roman territory during campaigns of conquest such as in Gaul, Germany and Britain?"
My assumption is that since the Romans did most of the road building in this part of the world, the answer would be, no.
"
That would be mine too, although in some cases Roman roads did follow ancient track ways.
Graham.
Marching and Footwear - 66kbm - 08-25-2014
Graham
In case you did not know, there is a great book about Roman Roads and track ways by someone. I will send you the link if I can find it.
Re Iron Age footwear, totally agree, as would all my Iron age chums. If one thinks Caligae are pants.....try wearing Iron Age footwear. Apparently its like wearing "moccasins" on grease.
Hears a thought.....As a roman soldier I have to march to "X". So do I march along the road/gravelled/metalled surface and wear out my hobnails quickly, and have to pay for repairs/replacement, or do I march to one side on the grass?
Obviously the best/quickest minded would have hitched a lift on a cart.
Kevin
Marching and Footwear - Crispianus - 08-25-2014
"Apparently its like wearing "moccasins" on grease."
Well I guess it depends on your experience, I've worn turn shoes(and Carbatinas) with no real problems both in re-inactment and normal life for many years(at one time it was all I wore) and except on ice(where skates are likely better) would say they were no better or worse then any other footware....
"football stud analogy"
I think the Hobnail grip question is only relevant when the shoes are fitted with accurate roman style nails, I suspect what's being discussed here is something else entirely, this also applies to longevity, the nailed construction in particular on "civilian" style nailing is intended to strengthen the construction "military" footware sometimes takes this a lot further the entire sole being covered with nails presumably to prevent wear on those long marches....
These nails though are all clenched over permanently holding the layers together or at least until the heads wear off and impossible to remove without damaging the shoe until that happens, so resoling is out of the question until a substantial number have worn smooth....
The shoe evidence from Vindolanda(see the early wooden forts Vol III page 33) seems to prove the point that shoes were heavily repaired or even in some cases reconstructed though this may reflect supply rather then normal practice, this is though not necessarily an exception as there are other examples of extensive shoe repair in the record ....
Moi the roads question was rather rhetorical though the hobnail one wasn't
mile: Kevin would be interested in that book please post a link.... could use a good one stop source..
Marching and Footwear - Crispianus - 08-25-2014
What follows are my own estimates:
An Auxiliary Cohort of approximately 500 men would need:
1500 pairs of shoes per year assuming three pairs issued and 375,000 hobnails (250 per pair) not including spares for repairs.
Production time and materials:
30 hours to make a pair of shoes or 45,000 hours for 1500 pairs, at ten hours per working day this would take approximately 12 years for on man, one year for 12 men, these would take approx 175 cow hides to make, a letter at Vindolanda(Auxiliary Cohort garrison) from Octavius to Candidus a "mess mate" mentions 170 hides.
One year approx to tan a cow hide(depending on thickness it can take 6 months to 3 years), a herd of 700 cattle are needed to produce 175 cowhides per year , a local estimate the area I live in had many Tanneries at one time.
500 nails per day (10 hours) would take 750 days for one man to produce 375,000 hobnails say one year for three men, if less nails are used this is proportionally less. The Iron used would be approx 400kg.
So the Cohort would require a minimum of 12 shoe makers** and 3 specialist blacksmiths* plus the required materials to keep them in shoes, not too many I think for 500 men.
*Materials are assumed to be brought in rather then produced on site this may include hobnails rather then just the iron. I think repairs on the march would be limited to minor repairs and replacing worn Hobnails.
** Time to make a pair is an estimate of my own experience producing shoes using roman construction, however it is a learning experience even after 25 years, and its quite possible roman shoes makers had "Tricks of the Trade" short cuts if you like that are unknown to me, so this estimate should be treated with a bit of caution, its also possible a group effort would produce the end product quicker....
There was some discussion a while ago about boys in forts... well here's a trade for them!
Marching and Footwear - 66kbm - 08-25-2014
Ivor
Link to the book and website
http://www.romanroadsinbritain.info/book.html
Kevin
Marching and Footwear - Graham Sumner - 08-25-2014
"I think the Hobnail grip question is only relevant when the shoes are fitted with accurate roman style nails, I suspect what's being discussed here is something else entirely, this also applies to longevity,"
Good point. It is probably quite common that results are deduced and analysed which have been obtained from reconstructions that themselves may be better or worse than the original items. Equally many reconstructions are copies of other reconstructions rather than copies of original sources.
It is like those TV documentaries which attempted to show that if you get a group of modern unfit men and put then into Roman kit for a week they will fail. Thus proving Roman soldiers were tougher, when of course you could put the same men through modern military training and they would fail that too!
Graham.
Marching and Footwear - Mark Hygate - 08-26-2014
Quote:Actually I quite like my hobnails when NOT walking on a paved road. Of course the hobnails protct my soles when on a hard surface, but they provide grip when on grass, sand and mud! Especially with a heavy load to carry, I prefer hobnailed shoes.
And thank you again...
So actual experience suggests that hob-nails on caligae do, in fact, act rather like studs (which is contrary to my experience in drill boots!).
Marching and Footwear - agrimensor - 08-26-2014
@ Mark, think of the hobnails as the profile on modern rubber sloes on shoes. Leather soles in wet grass isn't that sturdy as well. That is why until ww2 shoes wer made with hobnails.( and miners still do)
Marching and Footwear - Bryan - 08-26-2014
So in a situation where logistics are secure and requisitioning new sandals or repairing them professionally is an option, a soldier could get away with always marching in his boots. But if a soldier was actively campaigning for the better part of a year in enemy territory, it would mean they either brought 4-5 pairs of boots with them, or wore the few they had while marching till they fell apart and then went barefooted at all the times until new boots could be "acquired", or they marched barefooted or with foot rags saving their boots for either arduous weather or battle.
Sound reasonable?
Marching and Footwear - santell - 08-27-2014
I was a postman for 25 years and walked 12 1/2 mikes a day. I wore out a 100$ pair of New Balance uniform shoes every three months. For a hard working man, I believe three months of life out of a pair of shoes was acceptable to me, more than likely the Roman soldier felt the same.
Marching and Footwear - Martin Moser - 08-27-2014
Almost 20 years ago I took part in a 250 - 300 km march over 14 days in Switzerland, walking on gravel, asphalt, forest ground and grass with the very first pair of caligae I ever made (it was interesting but I don't think I want to repeat the experience :-)). Partly in full kit, partly with shield, armour and weapons only. Sturdy hobnails, good grip. Only problem was walking in the wet over a longer period where the leather tends to give and you start slipping in the shoe. I use thicker leather now than back then, but cut the straps thinner OTOH. Hobnails on the heel wore down about 30-40%.
Besides the quality of the material itself (quality and method of tanning) regular treatment of the leather with grease or similar makes a big difference on how soon (or not) a strap will break.
As for grip, except for smooth stone surfaces you are definitely at an advantage over carbatina style shoes with proper hobnails (like http://sutor.jimdo.com/shoes/roman-shoes/mainz-calceus/ or my Castleford caligae)
Caligae apparently could also be repaired in the field, at least some of the repairs on surviving originals show simple methods that do not require a craftsman: e.g. a torn strap was replaced by a new strap threaded through a slit in the leather where the original strap sat. the new strap is kept in place simply by being cut with barb-like lateral extensions at their lower end.
Marching and Footwear - thiswayup - 09-08-2014
The ridiculous assumption in this thread is that Roman soldiers marched every day. Well, no, this is very, very silly. You march to go places. Most of the time you do not want to do this! You're already at a fort or camp.
And if you are a Roman logistics officer, then new caligae every three or six months for your soliders are the least of your problems. Because you are going to have to feed men every day. If you have the logistics to do that, caligae are not a problem! Reasonably, caligae that were good for three months marching would have been good for a year or more of normal activity and the bill for footwear would have been small compared to that for food.
Marching and Footwear - thiswayup - 09-08-2014
Quote:30 hours to make a pair of shoes
To make caligae??? No. Looking at this pattern
http://www.legiotricesima.org/campusMartis/MakingCaligae/MakingAuthenticCaligae.html
then I'd say that with practice cutting out might take 1 to 2 hours and putting the nails half an hour. Add in 2 more hours for edging and sewing, double for a pair.
Marching and Footwear - Quintus Claudius Scaevola - 09-08-2014
Ah, but you're not taking prep-work into account; I've made a pair with the method you've posted, and doing a tunnel-stitch into a solid piece with a curved awl would be very difficult without soaking the outer sole first to soften it up - that takes some time. However let's say that you're not doing something like that, but rather making something like this:
Calcei tutorial
In that case, you will definitely need several hours for the glue to set up between steps.