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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Printable Version

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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Right, your text says Myriades, ergo there is no way in hell we can use this passage from Zozimus as a source.


Quote:Ridley has an endnote on this as follows:

'The forty thousand men in the MS should obviously be emended, since Soz. 9.8 gives 4,000 (6 arithmoi).'

I read Sozomen, how could I have missed that?!

I'll get the exact text in a few minutes, I have it with me.

6 Arithmoi numbering 4000 would make sense, especially considering the Arithmoi was a term for Numerus.


Quote:The affairs of Honorius were reduced to so critical a condition, that ships were kept in readiness to convey him, if it were necessary, to his nephew, when an army of four thousand men which had started from the west arrived unexpectedly during the night at Ravenna; Honorius caused the walls of the city to be guarded by this reinforcement, for he distrusted the native troops as inclined to treachery.

Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Right Macedon, Myriades.


Quote:Ridley has an endnote on this as follows:

'The forty thousand men in the MS should obviously be emended, since Soz. 9.8 gives 4,000 (6 arithmoi).'

I read Sozomen, how could I have missed that?!

I'll get the exact text in a few minutes, I have it with me.

6 Arithmoi numbering 4000 would make sense, especially considering the Arithmoi was a term for Numerus.


Quote:The affairs of Honorius were reduced to so critical a condition, that ships were kept in readiness to convey him, if it were necessary, to his nephew, when an army of four thousand men which had started from the west arrived unexpectedly during the night at Ravenna; Honorius caused the walls of the city to be guarded by this reinforcement, for he distrusted the native troops as inclined to treachery.

Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-19-2014

Quote:Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'?
Are you thinking of Vegetius 1.17.2?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

I know of his mention, there is another mention but I can't find/remember it.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-19-2014

The text of Sozomenos reads :

"ἐν ἓξ ἀριθμοῖς ἀμφὶ τετρακισχίλιοι στρατιῶται νύκτωρ τῇ Ῥαβέννῃ προσέπλευσαν ἐκ τῆς ἀνατολῆς·"

In 6 arithmoi, about 4,000 soldiers sailed to Ravenna at night from the east.

I have not analyzed Sozomenos yet to have an own opinion but Ridley, as I see it, should have translated the number as it was in the text and then add Sozomenos' parallel in the footnote. See how deceiving it may be when trying to relate the 4,000 men to the term telos and hypothesize on the manpower of a legion?

About the Joviani and the Herculiani I think you mean Zosimus (3.30.2)


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Can you provide the text of Zozimus 3.30.2?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-19-2014

Sure,

"ἐτετάχατο δὲ ἐν τούτῳ Ἰοβιανοὶ καὶ Ἑρκουλιανοί· ταγμάτων δὲ ταῦτα ὀνόματα, παρὰ Διοκλητιανοῦ καὶ Μαξιμιανοῦ καταστάντα"

In it arrayed the Joviani and the Herculiani, these are names of tagmata, established by Diocletianus and Maximianus.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Thanks, but still not the one I'm thinking of. I'll have to try and find it again...


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-19-2014

Quote:Ridley, as I see it, should have translated the number as it was in the text and then add Sozomenos' parallel in the footnote.
I do not know what edition of Zosimus you are using but the Internet Archive has Mendelssohn's 1887 Teubner edition in which the text has been emended to read 'chiliadon'. The apparatus includes the reference to Sozomen and gives the reading 'myriadon' from the manuscript V. It seems that as early as that philologists were emending the text to correct what appeared to be an obvious error.


Quote:"ἐτετάχατο δὲ ἐν τούτῳ Ἰοβιανοὶ καὶ Ἑρκουλιανοί· ταγμάτων δὲ ταῦτα ὀνόματα, παρὰ Διοκλητιανοῦ καὶ Μαξιμιανοῦ καταστάντα"

In it arrayed the Joviani and the Herculiani, these are names of tagmata, established by Diocletianus and Maximianus.
You may be able to explain a peculiarity of Ridley's translation. He ends 3.30.2 with " . . . where the Joviani and Herculani were posted." Then, in an asterisked footnote, he adds, "The names of these legions were given by Diocletian and Maximian: they bear their surnames Jovius and Herculius respectively." He does this sort of thing many times in his translation but there is no explanation that I can find of what these footnotes are. Possibly they come from another manuscript. Do you know?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Myriadon and Chiliadon... those sound like Dinosaurs to me Big Grin

There are about... 10 legions from Diocletian's reign named Herculea/Herculani and Iovia/Iovani. Who cites them being proficient with the Mattiobarbulus again?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Longovicium - 03-19-2014

Vegetius.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Yeah it's him.

This is my current passage on 5th Century Roman Unit Sizes. In it I suggest an organization of units of 1500, with Iuniores and Seniores being 3000 strong.


Quote:The size of the late Roman army, and of the late Roman legion itself, is extremely controversial and relies on a few scraps of evidence. Claudian and Orosius mention a force of 2 legions and 5 Auxilia palatina numbering 5000 men, Zozimus mentions 5 Dalmatian Tagmatae numbering 6000 and an Ile numbering 600, and Sozomen mentions 6 Arithmoi of 4000 men. Ammianus mentions seven Legions and Numeri numbering less than 20,000 at Amida, and two Alae totaling 700 men, as well as several references to detachments. Finally are the controversial Panopolis Papyrii, which make no mention of unit sizes themselves, but by utilizing Byzantine sources Jones and Duncan-Jones extrapolated potential unit sizes, including approximately 1100 men for Legio II Traiana, 1800 for Legio III Diocletiana, 160 for the Equites promoti, 120 for a unit of Equites sagittarii, and 24 for a unit of Dromedarii. Another papyrus from Justinan’s time records an Arithmos of 508 men as well.

Anything that is seemingly simple about these numbers is not, especially when cross-referenced with the Notitia. The first thing about this evidence is to look at the records of Arithmoi and Numerii, which are the same kind of unit. The six Arithmoi of Sozomen number 666 each, and of Justinian numbers 508, which would show a potential strength of the Numerus at 600 men. This is fascinating, as the Strategicon makes mention of Numeri numbering 300 men. Many Auxilia Palatina units, which are recorded as Numeri or Cohortes, were often divided between Seniores and Iuniores and put at separate posts: by reconciling the Strategicon with both Sozomen and the Papyrus, one gets a “complete” Numerus of 600 men, which is comprised of an Iuniores unit of 300 and a Seniores unit of 300. This would also solve some of the problems with the Ducenarius, which will be discussed later.

Using this system, it provides some clarity to Claudian’s record of the 2 Legions and 5 Auxilia palatina units that were led by Macezel into Africa in 398. If the Palatina units, which can be equated with the Augustei, Sagittarii nervi, the Felices iuniores or seniores, the Invicti seniores, and the Leones iuniores or seniores, are assigned numbers of 600, 600, 300, 300, and 300 respectively, then that would leave another 2900 men for the two Legions to fill, making them number about 1450 men each. Zozimus’ record of the 5 units from Dalmatia would suggest 5 legions of 1200, but actually the Dalmatian Comitatenses consists of 4 Legions and one Numerus, suggesting a Numerus of 300 and four Legions of 1425. These both closely coincide with John Lydus’ units of Mattiarii and Lanciarii serving under Julian in 363, which each supposedly numbered 1500 men. Certainly Ammianus’ mention of detachment sizes of 300, 400, 500, and 750 men would make sense with a larger Legion. This presents the fascinating possibility of a 1500 man Legion, and possibly a 3000 man Legion if one takes into account the division of some units into Iuniores and Seniores. In fact, this would also allow the combined forces of the old Legio Septima Gemina, still in operation in Spain, Gaul, and Anatolia, to number a total of 4500 men!

Finally are the references to cavalry. One of the most fascinating things to notice about the Notitia, is that the newest cavalry units are called Cunei, which seems like an adoption of a Hunnic cavalry structure. Ammianus’ mention of 700 men in two Alae, and Zozimus’ Ile or Ala of 600 would seem to coincide with possibly both qunigenary and milliary strength Alae. Units listed as Iuniores and Seniores may have numbered 350 each to total 700, while there were also quingenary Ala of 500 or so. Another record is by Synesius, who mentions Unnigardae, which will be detailed later. He records them operating in units of 40, and 200, all under the same leader which would suggest a Hunnic Cuneus could have numbered 240 men; providing the Romans adopted the organization of their Cuneus from the Huns, this could suggest an organization of the Roman style Cuneus. The evidence for this, however, is circumstantial: there could be a number of other reasons for why Cunei are almost exclusive to the Middle and Lower Danubian Limes.

Thoughts? I used sources and discussion from this thread (I haven't included it in the text yet but I wrote them all down.)


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-19-2014

Quote:the controversial Panopolis Papyrii... approximately 1100 men for Legio II Traiana, 1800 for Legio III Diocletiana, 160 for the Equites promoti...

But bear in mind that the Beatty papyri can only be used to try and calculate the numbers of detachments based in the Thebaid, not the full legions. II Traiana was probably still based at Nicopolis, so would have been much larger than the 993 infantry and 77 cavalry suggested by the papyri. There's also another papyrus - Columbia 7.188 - from AD320, giving a vexillatio of equites promoti of II Traiana 264 men.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014

Thanks Nathan. I will add that they are detachments, and I did put "controversial" for a reason! They are still excellent documents.