Late Roman Unit Sizes - Printable Version +- RomanArmyTalk (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat) +-- Forum: Research Arena (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Roman Military History & Archaeology (https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Thread: Late Roman Unit Sizes (/showthread.php?tid=23660) |
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Right, your text says Myriades, ergo there is no way in hell we can use this passage from Zozimus as a source. Quote:Ridley has an endnote on this as follows: I read Sozomen, how could I have missed that?! I'll get the exact text in a few minutes, I have it with me. 6 Arithmoi numbering 4000 would make sense, especially considering the Arithmoi was a term for Numerus. Quote:The affairs of Honorius were reduced to so critical a condition, that ships were kept in readiness to convey him, if it were necessary, to his nephew, when an army of four thousand men which had started from the west arrived unexpectedly during the night at Ravenna; Honorius caused the walls of the city to be guarded by this reinforcement, for he distrusted the native troops as inclined to treachery. Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Right Macedon, Myriades. Quote:Ridley has an endnote on this as follows: I read Sozomen, how could I have missed that?! I'll get the exact text in a few minutes, I have it with me. 6 Arithmoi numbering 4000 would make sense, especially considering the Arithmoi was a term for Numerus. Quote:The affairs of Honorius were reduced to so critical a condition, that ships were kept in readiness to convey him, if it were necessary, to his nephew, when an army of four thousand men which had started from the west arrived unexpectedly during the night at Ravenna; Honorius caused the walls of the city to be guarded by this reinforcement, for he distrusted the native troops as inclined to treachery. Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-19-2014 Quote:Also, isn't there a text that mentions Diocletian's raising of the Herculani and Iovani in the 280's or 290s'?Are you thinking of Vegetius 1.17.2? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 I know of his mention, there is another mention but I can't find/remember it. Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-19-2014 The text of Sozomenos reads : "ἐν ἓξ ἀριθμοῖς ἀμφὶ τετρακισχίλιοι στρατιῶται νύκτωρ τῇ Ῥαβέννῃ προσέπλευσαν ἐκ τῆς ἀνατολῆς·" In 6 arithmoi, about 4,000 soldiers sailed to Ravenna at night from the east. I have not analyzed Sozomenos yet to have an own opinion but Ridley, as I see it, should have translated the number as it was in the text and then add Sozomenos' parallel in the footnote. See how deceiving it may be when trying to relate the 4,000 men to the term telos and hypothesize on the manpower of a legion? About the Joviani and the Herculiani I think you mean Zosimus (3.30.2) Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Can you provide the text of Zozimus 3.30.2? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-19-2014 Sure, "ἐτετάχατο δὲ ἐν τούτῳ Ἰοβιανοὶ καὶ Ἑρκουλιανοί· ταγμάτων δὲ ταῦτα ὀνόματα, παρὰ Διοκλητιανοῦ καὶ Μαξιμιανοῦ καταστάντα" In it arrayed the Joviani and the Herculiani, these are names of tagmata, established by Diocletianus and Maximianus. Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Thanks, but still not the one I'm thinking of. I'll have to try and find it again... Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-19-2014 Quote:Ridley, as I see it, should have translated the number as it was in the text and then add Sozomenos' parallel in the footnote.I do not know what edition of Zosimus you are using but the Internet Archive has Mendelssohn's 1887 Teubner edition in which the text has been emended to read 'chiliadon'. The apparatus includes the reference to Sozomen and gives the reading 'myriadon' from the manuscript V. It seems that as early as that philologists were emending the text to correct what appeared to be an obvious error. Quote:"ἐτετάχατο δὲ ἐν τούτῳ Ἰοβιανοὶ καὶ Ἑρκουλιανοί· ταγμάτων δὲ ταῦτα ὀνόματα, παρὰ Διοκλητιανοῦ καὶ Μαξιμιανοῦ καταστάντα"You may be able to explain a peculiarity of Ridley's translation. He ends 3.30.2 with " . . . where the Joviani and Herculani were posted." Then, in an asterisked footnote, he adds, "The names of these legions were given by Diocletian and Maximian: they bear their surnames Jovius and Herculius respectively." He does this sort of thing many times in his translation but there is no explanation that I can find of what these footnotes are. Possibly they come from another manuscript. Do you know? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Myriadon and Chiliadon... those sound like Dinosaurs to me There are about... 10 legions from Diocletian's reign named Herculea/Herculani and Iovia/Iovani. Who cites them being proficient with the Mattiobarbulus again? Late Roman Unit Sizes - Longovicium - 03-19-2014 Vegetius. Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Yeah it's him. This is my current passage on 5th Century Roman Unit Sizes. In it I suggest an organization of units of 1500, with Iuniores and Seniores being 3000 strong. Quote:The size of the late Roman army, and of the late Roman legion itself, is extremely controversial and relies on a few scraps of evidence. Claudian and Orosius mention a force of 2 legions and 5 Auxilia palatina numbering 5000 men, Zozimus mentions 5 Dalmatian Tagmatae numbering 6000 and an Ile numbering 600, and Sozomen mentions 6 Arithmoi of 4000 men. Ammianus mentions seven Legions and Numeri numbering less than 20,000 at Amida, and two Alae totaling 700 men, as well as several references to detachments. Finally are the controversial Panopolis Papyrii, which make no mention of unit sizes themselves, but by utilizing Byzantine sources Jones and Duncan-Jones extrapolated potential unit sizes, including approximately 1100 men for Legio II Traiana, 1800 for Legio III Diocletiana, 160 for the Equites promoti, 120 for a unit of Equites sagittarii, and 24 for a unit of Dromedarii. Another papyrus from Justinan’s time records an Arithmos of 508 men as well. Thoughts? I used sources and discussion from this thread (I haven't included it in the text yet but I wrote them all down.) Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-19-2014 Quote:the controversial Panopolis Papyrii... approximately 1100 men for Legio II Traiana, 1800 for Legio III Diocletiana, 160 for the Equites promoti... But bear in mind that the Beatty papyri can only be used to try and calculate the numbers of detachments based in the Thebaid, not the full legions. II Traiana was probably still based at Nicopolis, so would have been much larger than the 993 infantry and 77 cavalry suggested by the papyri. There's also another papyrus - Columbia 7.188 - from AD320, giving a vexillatio of equites promoti of II Traiana 264 men. Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-19-2014 Thanks Nathan. I will add that they are detachments, and I did put "controversial" for a reason! They are still excellent documents. |