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+--- Thread: Late Roman Unit Sizes (/showthread.php?tid=23660)
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - nikgaukroger - 02-25-2016
Absolutely.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 02-25-2016
(02-25-2016, 07:51 PM)Nathan Ross Wrote: There certainly were. Ammianus Marcellinus (14.2) describes a brief war with the Isaurians in c.354. After mentioning "the soldiers quartered in the numerous towns and fortresses which lie near those regions", he particularly mentions "Pamphylia... protected everywhere by strong garrisons", "the legions that were then wintering at Side" in that province, and "Seleucia, the metropolis of the province, which Count Castricius was holding with three legions steeled by hard service". These are later supported by "Nebridius, Count of the East [who] got together troops from every side".
So this region was heavily garrisoned by limitanei legions. Mostly probably the one listed on the Perge fragments was of this sort.
Thanks for the quotes. Zeno the Isaurian (not to be confused with later "Zeno's"), a major wrench in the East Roman Empire's political operations in the 440's and 450's, probably commanded these forces.
Quote:But as Isauria and Pamphylia were not garrisoned at all until the late 3rd century at the earliest, and trouble with the Isaurians apparently continued into the early 6th century, I would think it a safe bet that strong limitanei forces remained there throughout the period in question.
Or at least until they were defeated and became the primary area of recruitment under the Emperor Zeno. IIRC many Isaurians became the Excubitores guard unit.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Longovicium - 02-26-2016
I believe the reasoning behind the numbers/grades relating to Palatinae is no longer held to by Fatih Onur. The following extract sets out his original thinking from which he has now shifted. The quote is from page 305 of the following article:
The Roman Army in Pamphylia: From the Third to Sixth Centuries A.D.
https://www.academia.edu/182272/The_Roman_Army_in_Pamphylia_From_the_Third_to_Sixth_Centuries_A.D
Finally, we are informed by an Anastasian Edict from Perge that there were legions stationed in Pamphylia. This unpublished Anastasian inscription of Perge contains a list that tells the numbers of soldiers and their salaries, and was sent to the legionary units in Pamphylia. The number of soldiers given in this notitia is large enough to present a double unit. One can think that the units in question might have been the imperial legions under praesental order, i.e. legiones palatinae, due to geographical situation of Pamphylia and presence of magister militum praesentalis at this time in the region to deal with the Isaurians. Anyhow, the unit was headquartered in Side and Perge, and its detachments (vexillationes) should have also been spread in various places. Even though the types of legions cannot directly be derived from the inscription, a report from Theophanes gives us a noteworthy scene from the year of 493. In his narrative, comes scholarum Diogenes captured the city of Claudiopolis (Mut), but later his army was besieged in the city by Isaurians. The Magister militum prasentalis Flavius Ioannes having passed the narrows of Tauroi and taken the “guards” with himself, rescued the army of Diogenes from the siege. Therefore, it is clear that the palatine units stayed in the region around and in Isaurian territory at least from 492 to 498, so that Ioannes was able to lift the siege of Claudiopolis quickly. So most probably, the legions mentioned in the Perge inscription, stationed in Pamphylian plain to stand against the Isaurian unrest that continued until 498, were among legiones palatinae.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - nikgaukroger - 02-26-2016
(02-25-2016, 11:38 PM)Flavivs Aetivs Wrote: Or at least until they were defeated and became the primary area of recruitment under the Emperor Zeno. IIRC many Isaurians became the Excubitores guard unit.
After Zeno's death Anastasius had to fight a war against the Isaurians at the end of the C5th - troops stationed in Isauria in the early C6th due to this would seem reasonable.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 02-26-2016
I have the paper Francis mentions and Onur has carried out a great deal of research and as such if he states Palatine units were stationed in Pamphylia during Anastasius' reign then I believe he is correct in that. Also, would an Emperor have a edict raised about the pay of a limitanae unit or is it more probable this would only have been raised in respect of the grumbles by the troops of a Palatine one?
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 02-27-2016
(02-26-2016, 09:20 AM)ValentinianVictrix Wrote: would an Emperor have a edict raised about the pay of a limitanae unit or... a Palatine one?
Good point, yes. However, surely such an edict would have been inscribed in Constantinople, or the usual base of the palatini concerned, rather than in provincial Perge? There may well have been palatine troops operating in the area at the time, but unless they were intended to remain there for many years it seems a strange thing to do. Both options are possible, of course, but I still think a frontier unit is more likely than a palatine one. No reason to suspect that the emperor would be any less concerned about corruption and manning in a border legion! The notitia lists all the various positions and commanders of units and subunits of the limitanei quite scrupulously.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Longovicium - 02-27-2016
Can I please reiterate that the palatinae issue is a misnomer? This is an historical position - as quoted in the article extract above - which Fatih no longer holds to. In his correspondence with me, he has made it quite clear that his original proposition is no longer tenable. I quote:
"On the basis of my recent research on Text C, it seems that the total number of men listed in the schedule was no less than 1550-1600, in consequence, this was a large unit, apparently consistent with the numbers in a legio of the comitatenses (see p. 124). In my preliminary reports (Onur 2012a, 269; Onur 2012b, 36), I had suggested that the unit in the Perge inscription is a legio palatina and that the magister militum in question should be identified as a magister militum praesentalis, probably Flavius Ioannes (PLRE II 617-619, s.v. Fl. Ionnes qui et Gibbus 93). However, given the current state of the evidence, this opinion cannot be conclusively proved . . ."
He goes on to further add that he is uncommitted to what grade of legion the slab numbers refer to. I hope this clears up some misconceptions here!
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 02-27-2016
(02-27-2016, 01:15 PM)Longovicium Wrote: he has made it quite clear that his original proposition is no longer tenable... he is uncommitted to what grade of legion the slab numbers refer to. I hope this clears up some misconceptions here!
It does - thanks!
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - nikgaukroger - 02-27-2016
(02-27-2016, 01:15 PM)Longovicium Wrote: He goes on to further add that he is uncommitted to what grade of legion the slab numbers refer to. I hope this clears up some misconceptions here!
Indeed - back to we just don't know
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 02-27-2016
However, Onur does not dismiss the idea he originally had that this could have been a Palatine legion. It was more likely to have been a Comitatensis legion though I do agree.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Robert Vermaat - 02-29-2016
(02-27-2016, 01:38 PM)nikgaukroger Wrote: Indeed - back to we just don't know
Wich is quite common in military history.
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Steven James - 11-01-2016
Is there evidence to disprove the arithmoi/numeri could be another term for vexillation?
Ammianus (31 11 2) has Valens send a number of numeri each of 300 men from each legion to meet the Goths at Adrianople. The inscription of Hadrian’s address to the legionary base at Lambaesis mentions that five men from each century were sent to the third legion (III Cyrenaica). Could this also apply to what Ammianus is describing?
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 03:00 AM)Steven James Wrote: Is there evidence to disprove the arithmoi/numeri could be another term for vexillation?
Ammianus (31 11 2) has Valens send a number of numeri each of 300 men from each legion to meet the Goths at Adrianople. The inscription of Hadrian’s address to the legionary base at Lambaesis mentions that five men from each century were sent to the third legion (III Cyrenaica). Could this also apply to what Ammianus is describing?
Steven, where do you get the information that Valens sent 'numeri'? Not from Ammianus' work because this is what he wrote-
'Unde cum itinere edicto per tesseram Nicen venisset, quae statio ita cognominatur: relatione speculatorum didicit refertos opima barbaros praeda a Rhodopeis tractibus prope Hadrianopolim revertisse: qui motu imperatoris cum abundanti milite cognito, popularibus iungere festinant, circa Beroeam et Nicopolim agentibus praesidiis fixis: atque ilico ut oblatae occasionis maturitas postulabat, cum trecentenis militibus per singulos numeros lectis Sebastianus properare dispositus est, conducens rebus publicis aliquid, ut promittebat, acturus.'
'Having commanded a march from there by written order, he came to the military post called Nice, where he learned from the report of scouts that the barbarians, laden with rich spoils, had returned from the lands at the foot of Rhodope to the neighbourhood of Hadrianopolis; they, on hearing that the emperor was on the march with a large force, were hastening to join their countrymen, who were staying in a permanent garrison near Beroea and Nicopolis. At once, as timeliness of the offered opportunity demanded, Sebastianus had been directed to choose three hundred soldiers from each legion and hasten to the spot, to do, as he promised, something advantageous to the state.' Amm BkXXXI, 11.2
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - Steven James - 11-01-2016
Actually this one: Ammianus (20 4 2-3) “he sent Decentius, the tribune and secretary, at once to take from Julian his auxiliaries, namely, the Aeruli and Batavi35 and the Celts with the Petulantes, as well as three hundred picked men from each of the other divisions (numeri) of the army.”
RE: Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 10:20 AM)Steven James Wrote: Actually this one: Ammianus (20 4 2-3) “he sent Decentius, the tribune and secretary, at once to take from Julian his auxiliaries, namely, the Aeruli and Batavi35 and the Celts with the Petulantes, as well as three hundred picked men from each of the other divisions (numeri) of the army.”
Good catch Steven, I had not realised the Ammianus used the term.
Here is the latin for those who are interested-
'2 Ob haec et similia percitus metuensque me augerentur in maius, stimulante, ut ferebatur, praefecto Florentio, Decentium tribunum et notarium misit auxiliares milites exinde protinus abstracturum Aerulos et Batavos cumque Petulantibus Celtas et lectos ex numeris aliis trecentenos, hac specie iussos adcelerare, ut adesse possint armis primo vere movendis in Parthos.'
Unfortunately Ammianus does not specify what kind of units the 300 men were taken from, nor how many groups of 300 were taken.