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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Printable Version

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Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2014

I honestly await the results of the Perge Tablets before I make any final conclusions, although IMO the evidence supports both a 600 and 300 man numerus and a 1500 man Legion.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-27-2014

Quote:Try this!

I do not know if these specific papyri are there
Yes, they are. P. Panop. Beatty 1 is TM 44881 and P. Panop. Beatty 2 is TM 44882. There is a hell of a lot of it and it's all in Greek, of course.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-27-2014

Adrian wrote:
Don't forget the other mentions of 300, 500

Some of the references to 500 men are for specialist troops to either climb a mountain or swim a river. I do not believe these are official unit organisations but selected men for a specific mission.

Adrian wrote:
and either 750 or 1500 men (depending on how you interpret the information) taken from each Legion that Ammianus mentions.

Is it interpreted “from each legion” or the army? I have references to 1500 men can break down to five units of 300 men. As to 750, I have not come across that one.

Adrian wrote:
Trying to figure out the size of the legions from those figures is also extremely difficult, unless of course you believe the legions were 3000 or 6000 men strong during the 4th century.

I do not believe the legion numbered 1200 men or 1000 men. I do believe the Romans have a core legion size, and as in the past, they add to it so as to bring the number up to a size they believe will be suited to the mission. The size I have for the core Late Roman legion is very common to the Romans. It existed from the Servian constitution and remained around until the mid republic. Polybius (6 19 8-9) knows of its existence but unfortunately no one has taken any interest in this aspect of Polybius’ narrative.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-27-2014

Quote:Some on this list don’t believe in the Vegetius 6000 man legion so I wasn’t sure if you were in that school of thought.

Just to be clear - I don't think legions of that size existed in Vegetius's day: he was referring to an earlier system. But I don't think it's at all controversial that a legion of 6000 men may have been the accepted model at some point. As I've said, the Severan era seems the most likely candidate for the legion reaching its maximum size, and this may have endured until Diocletian's day - the Herculiani and Ioviani legions, according to Vegetius, were raised as 6000 men. That this number of troops were ever assembled as a single unit in a single place by this period is perhaps less likely.


Quote:There is a hell of a lot of it and it's all in Greek, of course.

I had a look through this database a while ago, but as I can't read Greek and have only the vaguest grasp of the mathematics involved it was a fairly hopeless task! I admit that I've drawn everything I know about the Panopolis papyri and their possible interpretations from a couple of secondary sources, mainly Duncan-Jones (for example here, which presents a good idea of the baffling amount of number-crunching going on with these estimates...)


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2014

And then you still have the problems of fractions: Coello attempts to solve this by taking into account different pay grades.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-27-2014

Quote:I do believe the Romans have a core legion size, and as in the past, they add to it so as to bring the number up to a size they believe will be suited to the mission.
So, your theory is that the legion was, in effect, a 'cadre army', somewhat like the German army of the early 1900s.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-27-2014

Well.... I have officially read them. They unfortunately include no numbers of men within units, but

1. There are a lot of units and sub units named
2. There is a lot of indirect information that could be used to make assumptions on the relative sizes of the units for those who are into logistics.

If there is anything in particular you want to know about the content, feel free to ask me. I will personally use them in my work for the terminology included.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-27-2014

It would certainly be interesting to know what the units and sub-units are and how they relate to one another. However, as far as I am concerned, I would not press you to do anything outside your own timeframe nor to attempt to calculate numbers unless they are obvious.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-27-2014

The numbers aren't obvious as the sources from whence Jones and Duncan-Jones get their payment amounts to calculate the numbers are 6th century Byzantine.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-27-2014

Quote:It would certainly be interesting to know what the units and sub-units are and how they relate to one another. However, as far as I am concerned, I would not press you to do anything outside your own timeframe nor to attempt to calculate numbers unless they are obvious.

I am already compiling a list of all units, sub-units and military offices listed to add to my work, so I am going to post that. By the way, Michael, could you take a look and suggest how I should refer to the papyri as a bibliography and as regards the content itself, since it seems (on the site) to be separated in entries?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-27-2014

I know that the opiniatores were the men tasked to receive money. Would there be a unit or body of opiniatores in all units? I keep getting names of signiferi/semaeophoroi/standard bearers of opiniatores seemingly within units.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-27-2014

Ok... so this is a collection of the relevant information :

[edit : some changes and additions after a more refined reading]

[edit 2 : added the only entry of the first papyrus that seems to be of interest in our discussion]

Papyrus I

1. Theodoros was an actuarios of the first cohort of the Apamenoi.

Papyrus II


1. Peteesios was a dekadarchos and an opiniator of the second eile Herculia of dromedaries under eparchos Eudaemon , which was stationed at Toetos and Psinabla .

2. Besas was a dekadarchos of the first cavalry eile of Iberians stationed at Thmoos . Paniskos was a dekadarchos and an opiniator of this unit.

3. The third legion Diocletiane is mentioned . Dioscoros was a hekatontarchos ordinatos of this unit .

4. Valerius was the praepositos of a [cavalry] sagittarii unit stationed at the fortress of Potekoptos . Maximus was a horseman of the opiniatores of the unit.

5. Leontios was the praepositos of a vexillatio of the second legion Trajan that was stationed at Upper Apollon . Kollouthos was an ekatontarchos supernumerarios and Gerontios was a semiaphoros standard-bearer of the opiniatores of this unit.

6. Leontios was the praepositos of the cavalry promotoi of the second legion Trajan, stationed at Tentyra . It seems that Maron was an ekatontarchos and Ammonios a horseman of the opiniatores of this unit. (If this Leontios is the same with the Leontios mentioned above as praepositos of a vexillatio, then this vexillatio would be of the cavalry promotoi.)

7. Mucianus was the praepositos of a vexillatio of various oriental legions, stationed at the fortress of Potekoptos . Dracontios was a hekatontarchos ordinatos and Chorikios a signifer of the opiniatores of this unit . The pay for this unit would be handed to a hekatontarchos, whose name is unreadable, and Philippos, a signifier of the opiniatores .

8. Procleianus was the praepositos of a vexillatio of the third legion Diocletiane, stationed at Soene . Orion seems to have been a signifier of this unit .

9. Tintus (once mentioned as Titus) was the praepositus of a vexillatio of lanciarii of the second legion Trajan, stationed at Ptolemais . Tintus is once mentioned as the praepositos of a vexillatio and twice as the praepositos of the lanciarii of a vexillatio, which seems to indicate that the vexillatio was one of lanciarii. Anoubios was a hekatontarchos supernumerarios and Sarapion a horseman of the opiniatores of this unit , also mentioned as a semiaphoros standard-bearer . Other names mentioned of this unit are Apollonoianos, a hekatontarchos supernumerarios and Athenodoros a soldier of the opiniatores .

10. Ursus was a tribunus of the eleventh cohort of Chamandoroi, stationed at Peamos, opposite to Abydos . Anubion was an imaginifer and Siluanus a soldier of the opiniatores in this unit .

11. Valerianus was the praepositos of the lanciarii of the third legion Diocletiane .



Some of those are mentioned more than once in the papyrus. Some names I have kept in Greek some, when it seemed appropriate to me, I have latinized. All the offices and unit names are fully identifiable in the original text and the Grecisized forms of the terms used here. The only one slightly different than usual was the term chorte, which I translated as cohort. To me it is an obvious colloquialism but some might disagree.


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-27-2014

Quote:By the way, Michael, could you take a look and suggest how I should refer to the papyri as bibliography and as regards the content itself, since it seems (on the site) to be separated in entries?
As far as I can tell, the entries in these papyri are referred to by line number. The problem is that it is sometimes difficult to work out which line is which. Thus, I have seen what I take to be the entry numbered 1 in your subsequent post (which I refer to below) identified as P. Panop. Beatty 2. 28, although it seems to me that the letter starts a line or two earlier. However, this may be because the authors of the articles in question were more interested in the ranks of the soldiers mentioned in it than in the opening salutation. There are some other, smaller numbers to the left of the TM text, which I take to be subdivisions of the papyrus. However, these seem to be ignored in references to it. So, to answer your question, I would identify any particular passage by its line number and, if it covers more than one line, I would give the opening and closing lines, e.g., P. Panop. Beatty 2. 28-30. I hope that this is what you wanted.


Quote:1. Peteesios was a dekadarchos and an opiniator of the second eile Herculia of dromedaries under eparchos Eudaemon , which was stationed at Toetos .
If this is the passage that I think it is, I was aware of it because of my interest in cataphractarii. It mentions a number of individuals: at least two cataphractarii, one named Ammonios, Peteesios whom you have already mentioned (I will come back to him), a summus named Serapion, an actuarius named Isidoros and more than one (I think) munifex, all in ala II Herculia dromedariorum. You mention that Peteesios is an 'opiniator'. I am not sure what this is; as far as I can tell, he is referred to only as dekadarchon. Could you explain, please?


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Macedon - 03-27-2014

Only Ammonios and some other name that is lost are categorized as cataphractarii, while Peteesis is called a dekadarchos, Sarapion a summos and Isidoros a munificas. All these are enlisted in the eile second Herculia of the dromedarii under eparchos Eudaemon. I did not mention these, because, apart from the dekadarchos, the rest seem to be administrative offices.

Peteesios is mentioned twice, once only as a dekadarchos and another (2.7 or 2.174, if the latter is indeed the number of the line...) as a (dekadarchos) opiniator.

The opiniatores are (or seem to be), a body of men within a unit that are responsible for bringing in the pay to the unit. They often appear in the plural in the text and are given military offices which would either make them a sub-unit or, to me more probable at the moment, they are mentioned with both their military rank and the fact that they are "of the opiniatores". So a signifer of the opiniatores, may mean that the person in question was a signifer for the said unit and one of its opiniatores. I do not think that it would mean that the opiniatores had their own signifer...


Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-27-2014

Quote:The opiniatores are (or seem to be), a body of men within a unit that are responsible for bringing in the pay to the unit.

Fascinating! I've never heard of this word either. Could it be a synonym for speculatores, perhaps? They might exist as a body within a larger unit, and perhaps be sent off on detached missions to collect pay etc...