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Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 03-26-2014
Quote:Claudian, (The War against Gildo 1 415-423) writes that:
'Stilicho made ready for war the most famous strengths in Mars (in the army), selecting there from special maniples from selected youth: he further prepared the fleet in the harbours of Etruria. Alcides himself commands the Herculean cohort; the king of the gods leads the Jovian. The Nervian cohort follows and the Felix, well deserving its name, the legion, too, named after Augustus, called the Unconquered, and the brave Leones (Lions) with the witness shield.”
From what I have been reading different authors interpret this force to consist of either five units, six units or seven units. Why is there so much difficulty?
The Panopolis Papyrus 2 mentions the following: Lancearii of legio II Traiana at Ptolemias, Lancearii of legio II Diocletiana at Panopolis.
The evidence continues to mount for the Lancearii being legionaries or being an integral part of a legion.
My interpretation of that text is that there is only one entire legion present, whose name is a bit of a problem because its stated it was named after Augustus, yet the text also calls it the 'Unconquered', which would make it the Legio Palatina Undecimani.
There are are three legionary cohorts, one from each of the following- Legio Palatina Herculani Seniores, Legio Palatina Ioviani seniores, Legio Palatina Nervii. The Felix I believe could well be the Auxilia Palatina Felicies Seniores. The Leones are the Auxilia Palatina Leones Seniores.
By my reckoning that makes six units not seven?
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-26-2014
Quote:My interpretation of that text is that there is only one entire legion present, whose name is a bit of a problem because its stated it was named after Augustus, yet the text also calls it the 'Unconquered', which would make it the Legio Palatina Undecimani.
There are 3 problems with this:
1. There are 3 stations of Undecimani: One in the Magister Militum Praesentalis (Legio Palatina), One in the Comes Hispaniae (Legio Comitatenses), and one in the Dux Dacia Ripensis (Ripenses/Riparienses)
2. The Notitia Dignitatum clearly indicates that the Undecimani does not mean 'Unconquered" but it labels them as Undecima Claudia: Old Legio XI Claudia
3. The Augustei are an Auxilia Palatina Numerus. Sarson thinks they were a Numerus of Augustans found garrisoned under the Dux Pannonia Valeria.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 03-26-2014
I think its probably more likely for the ancient writers to name only the units who were a cut above the rest, as the Palatine troops would have been. Hence why Ammianus only appears to mention the higher status units in his battle descriptions, despite the fact that there must have been other units present in those battles.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-26-2014
Praefectus legionis undecimae claudiae
Undecimani literally and clearly translates to "The Eleventh." Even Google translate recognizes that.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - antiochus - 03-26-2014
Nathan wrote:
As Evan says, it's seven. I haven't seen anyone credibly suggesting otherwise - where did the alternative figures come from?
Coello lists six units. Roger Tomlin, seven units and another interpretation I found from some years back in a discussion forum claimed it was five units.
Nathan wrote:
However, the legions mentioned in the Panopolis papyri (cAD300) were old-style frontier formations, still apparently using the Severan model, so not surprisingly they seem to feature integral lanciarii and equites.
How do you define the Severan model? Size, organisation etc?
Nathan wrote:
Whether this same model endured even much further into the 4th century is unknown, but it can't be used to work out the structure of later Roman legions more generally, still less those of the imperial field armies.
This is debatable. I like mathematics because mathematics has its own language and it can tell a story. I’ve compiled the empirical data from the reign of Diocletian onwards for unit sizes and have found there is a common denominator among all of those figures that they are divisible by. The way I work is I make a mathematical grid from the available empirical data to see if I can calculate the larger unit sizes and then their subunits. The Late Roman legion has both a horizontal organisation and a vertical organisation, so if you enjoy crossword puzzles you will understand how it looks.
Nathan wrote:
Luke Ueda-Sarson, meanwhile, has a page about lanciariihere that you might find interesting.
Thanks for the hands up Nathan, I have downloaded it and will process tomorrow. Also I have put in a footnote in my book thanking you for drawing to my attention Columbia (7 188). Should you not want to be named could you please PM me.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-26-2014
Quote:its stated it was named after Augustus, yet the text also calls it the 'Unconquered', which would make it the Legio Palatina Undecimani... There are are three legionary cohorts...
The original latin is dictaque ab Augusto legio momenque probantes invicti. Loeb translated this (as part of a list) as "the legion, too, named after Augustus, that well called the Unconquered" - suggesting these are two units, not one. 'Unconquered' is surely Invictus (not undecimani, which I'm pretty sure Evan is right about), and as the relevant list in the ND contains two units called Augustei and Invicti, I'd say these are most likely to be the ones mentioned by Claudian.
The use of 'legion' is a problem. However, I still think Claudian is using inexact terminology for poetic effect - by his day, cohorts only seem to appear in the limitanei, so the Herculiani and Ioviani are no more 'cohorts' than the Augustei are a 'legion'...
Quote:How do you define the Severan model? Size, organisation etc?
Big. 6000 men or so - Vegetius's 'ancient legion', in other words. Intregral light troops (lanciarii) perhaps, perhaps also enlarged cavalry component. I call it Severan for convenience - but it seems to have developed some time between the late 2nd and mid 3rd century. By the tetrarchy these big legions will have been whittled down significantly, but those in outlying places like Egypt they may have preserved their old structure longer.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 03-26-2014
Quote:Praefectus legionis undecimae claudiae
Undecimani literally and clearly translates to "The Eleventh." Even Google translate recognizes that.
Undecimani is an indication that said unit never disgraced itself on the battlefield and did not have to face the old system of 'decimani' where the other troops in the army quite literally beat every tenth man in the unit to death that was to face this punishment.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-26-2014
Quote:Magister Militum Flavius Aetius post=353140 Wrote:Praefectus legionis undecimae claudiae
Undecimani literally and clearly translates to "The Eleventh." Even Google translate recognizes that.
Undecimani is an indication that said unit never disgraced itself on the battlefield and did not have to face the old system of 'decimani' where the other troops in the army quite literally beat every tenth man in the unit to death that was to face this punishment.
Un means... well un. As in "Unconquered" or "Unfazed". "Undecimated" doesn't make sense IMO.
In Late Roman Unit Terminology, it translates to "The Elevens" just like Septimani translates to "The Sevens" and Quintani the "Fives."
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-26-2014
Quote:Undecimani is an indication that said unit... did not have to face the old system of 'decimani'
Wouldn't that be indecimati or something? In any case, it sounds an odd theory - very few legions were ever actually decimated, and those way back in the days of the republic, so the distinction would mean little (and 'unpunished' does not mean 'unconquered')... Where did you hear of this, Adrian?
I'd still go with this being a numerical reference - all secondary sources I've come across seem to agree.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - ValentinianVictrix - 03-26-2014
Quote:ValentinianVictrix post=353149 Wrote:Undecimani is an indication that said unit... did not have to face the old system of 'decimani'
Wouldn't that be indecimati or something? In any case, it sounds an odd theory - very few legions were ever actually decimated, and those way back in the days of the republic, so the distinction would mean little (and 'unpunished' does not mean 'unconquered')... Where did you hear of this, Adrian?
I'd still go with this being a numerical reference - all secondary sources I've come across seem to agree.
Its information I came across in one of my many reference books Nathan. Ammianus actually described a unit facing this punishment, which the Loeb version I believe translated something along the lines that it was carried out in the 'old way'. I've not got any of my books to hand at the moment to check any of this out.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-26-2014
Yes but Nathan is right: it would be Indecimati, not Undecimani. Complete difference in word structure and endings.
That, and in the Notitia many of the Numbered Legions have the same -ani ending. Septimani, Quartani, Quintani, Undecimani, etc.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Nathan Ross - 03-26-2014
Quote:Ammianus actually described a unit facing this punishment, which the Loeb version I believe translated something along the lines that it was carried out in the 'old way'.
Ah yes, Ammianus 24,3,1 - this is Julian in Persia, who "following the ancient laws, discharged and put to death ten of the soldiers who had fled from the field" - so not true decimation in the traditional manner, whatever Julian might have thought! He was quite big on reviving the 'old ways' though...
Anyway, it's an interesting theory but I still don't think it works as a unit title, so we're back to the elevenses ;-)
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Flavivs Aetivs - 03-26-2014
It better be Undecima Claudia because then I can bug Edge about having some of his Legionnaires do Late Roman
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-26-2014
Quote:another interpretation I found from some years back in a discussion forum claimed it was five units.
Quote:The problem is that the Loeb translation, no doubt for reasons of style, does not have enough 'ands'. Emphasising the 'ands' in the Latin text gives us:ValentinianVictrix post=353134 Wrote:its stated it was named after Augustus, yet the text also calls it the 'Unconquered', which would make it the Legio Palatina Undecimani... There are are three legionary cohorts...
The original latin is dictaque ab Augusto legio momenque probantes invicti. Loeb translated this (as part of a list) as "the legion, too, named after Augustus, that well called the Unconquered" - suggesting these are two units, not one. 'Unconquered' is surely Invictus (not undecimani, which I'm pretty sure Evan is right about
Herculeam suus Alcides Ioviamque cohortem rex ducit superum . . . Nervius insequitur meritusque vocabula Felix dictaque ab Augusto legio nomenque probantes invicti clipeoque animosi teste Leones.
Adapting the Loeb translation to include these gives:
Alcides himself commands the Herulean and the king of the gods leads the Jovian cohort . . . The Nevian follows and the Felix well deserving its name and the legion named after Augustus and that well named Unconquered and the brave Lions as their shields witness.
On the 'Undecimani' issue, I am entirely with Evan and Nathan. There is no question but that it means 'the elevenths'.
Quote:Its information I came across in one of my many reference booksI don't know what reference book you are referring to, Adrian, but it is completely up the creek.
Late Roman Unit Sizes - Renatus - 03-26-2014
Quote:And don't forget II Traiana in 298-304 had Lanciarii Vexillationes in Egypt. The Panopolis Papyrii are amazing.Evan, how are you accessing these?